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Interesting article on France and why they hate us

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout' started by Mr. Clutch, Jan 30, 2003.

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  1. Mr. Clutch

    Mr. Clutch Member

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    The French
    Why do they hate us?
    By Chris Suellentrop
    Posted Wednesday, January 29, 2003, at 4:27 PM PT



    In the aftermath of Sept. 11, Americans rushed to bookstores and libraries in search of the answer to the question that had been thrust upon them: Why do they hate us? But who knew that we should have been boning up on the history of France, not Islam?

    A funny thing happened on the way to the war: Our old allies the French, rather than our new Muslim foes, have become the caricatured foreigners of the war on terrorism. The French are tarred in the New York Post, among others, as the leaders of the "Axis of Weasel." National Review's Jonah Goldberg has made "cheese-eating surrender monkeys"—a Groundskeeper Willie line from an episode of The Simpsons—the rallying cry of Francophobes everywhere. After France's ambush of Colin Powell at last week's U.N. Security Council meeting, where the French foreign minister declared that military intervention in Iraq "would be the worst possible solution," it can't be long before someone declares the need for regime change in Paris.


    The debate over French anti-Americanism centers on the same question as the debate over Islamic radicalism: Do they hate us because of who we are, or what we do? As with the Middle East, the right takes the former tack, arguing that the French can be cowed into submission only by shows of strength. (The president also makes a point of claiming not to care why anyone hates us—least of all the French.) The left, on the other hand, tends to argue that we need to be more solicitous of France's needs. Their argument, in a nutshell: "It's our foreign policy, stupid."

    Most recently, Eric Alterman laid out the liberal case in this week's cover story for The Nation. Alterman's explanation: The Bush administration's unilateral policies, both before and after 9/11, explain the French distaste for the United States. In fact, the French don't even dislike the United States, Alterman argues. Rather, they dislike its leader. President Bush's religiosity, self-righteousness, and indifference to allies justify France's low opinion. Alterman is essentially saying to Americans what Bush told Iraqis in the State of the Union address: "Your enemy is not surrounding your country—your enemy is ruling your country. And the day he and his regime are removed from power will be the day of your liberation." If President Clinton—or even Ronald Reagan—were in charge instead of Busharoo Banzai, the French would embrace America with open arms.

    It sounds convincing—after all, lots of Europeans have been complaining about Bush of late. But it's not true. The French never really liked the Clinton administration, either. In June 2000, during President Clinton's last year in office, France was the only one (talk about unilateralism) of 107 countries to refuse to sign a U.S. initiative aimed at encouraging democracy around the world. A year earlier, State Department spokesman James Rubin complained, "We do find it puzzling and passing strange that France would spend so much energy and focus so much attention on the danger to them of a strong United States rather than the dangers that we and France together face from countries like Iraq." The French oppose the United States, quite simply, for what it is—the most powerful country on earth.

    If Britain's "special relationship" with the United States is to pal around with it and work to influence its policies from within, France thinks it has an equally special relationship with the U.S.: Its sacred duty is to check American power by publicly and ostentatiously objecting to it from without. The French are so concerned by the dominance of American power—militarily, economically, culturally, and technologically—that a former French foreign minister felt the need to coin a new word to describe it: hyperpuissance, or "hyperpower." Think of it this way: France thinks the United States has so much power that the French language didn't have a word for it.

    Much of the French opposition to American power arose after the fall of the Soviet Union made the United States the only power in a unipolar world: According to one poll, the percentage of the French who viewed the United States "with sympathy" dropped from 54 to 35 percent between 1988 and 1996. But French grumbling over U.S. power predates the end of the Cold War, too. As Philip H. Gordon outlined in the National Interest in 2000 (during the Clinton administration), "resentment and frustration" have marked French-American relations since the end of World War II. When Charles de Gaulle became president of the Fifth Republic, he was still resentful that FDR had refused to recognize his Free French resistance over the Vichy regime during the war. De Gaulle decided never to depend on the Americans again, and though he was an ally of the United States, he was an exceptionally cranky one, pursuing détente with the Soviet Union, withdrawing militarily from NATO, and establishing an independent French nuclear force.

    Perhaps the most astonishing description of the rocky French-American relationship comes from the French diplomat who, in 1983, told the Atlantic that a particular change in U.S. policy "makes us wonder whether we can count on American administrations—just as we've been wondering since Congress refused to endorse the Treaty of Versailles." Americans don't have this sort of historical consciousness—at least, not for anything that happened abroad before World War II. It's as if an American diplomat said, "Well, we had to beat the frogs in the French and Indian War to lay the groundwork for national unity and manifest destiny, and well, we've been beating them ever since." Or, "You know, we've known ever since the XYZ Affair that you couldn't trust the French. That's why we've been sparring with them since the Quasi-War."

    But history is at the core of the tensions between France and America. Donald Rumsfeld's comment last week about "old Europe" was telling: Americans see France as akin to Portugal, a once-great power now in decline. But as part of its own "special relationship" with the United States, France refuses to cede the world stage to the Americans. French identity is similar to American identity—France sees itself as a great nation worthy of power, the birthplace of democracy, and a culture and system of government that the world would be wise to emulate.

    Which is why, in the end, France will go along with the Bush administration on Iraq. If France vetoes a Security Council resolution, and the Bush administration goes to war anyway, France will have been proved powerless. But if it accedes to the war after demanding more evidence, it will be able to claim that it influenced American policy—whether it's true or not. Germany will likely stand on principle and oppose the war. But France would never do such a thing. As a U.N. diplomat said last week, "It matters to matter for France."
     
    #1 Mr. Clutch, Jan 30, 2003
  2. Achebe

    Achebe Member

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    man, we even cruise slate at the same time of day. :eek:
     
    #2 Achebe, Jan 30, 2003
  3. Cohen

    Cohen Member

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    'surrender monkeys' and 'it matters to matter' :eek:

    I've always tried to view the problems between us and France as something analogous to sibling rivalries. The more I read/hear, the more I think I'm wrong. :(

    How about the timing of the release of the JFK tapes last week?
     
    #3 Cohen, Jan 30, 2003
  4. Mr. Clutch

    Mr. Clutch Member

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    :eek: I'm embarrassed.

    I guess that means neither of us "works" at work.
     
    #4 Mr. Clutch, Jan 30, 2003
  5. Manny Ramirez

    Manny Ramirez The Music Man

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    Bah...big f*cking deal that France has some "America" envy. I am beginning to think about every country does except for Great Britain.

    Seriously, it is not surprising when you consider:

    1) France was the butt of jokes in WWII because they were occupied by Germany in what 1940?? Only like the 2nd year of the war...

    Yet, DeGaulle gets pissed because we didn't recognize some French free resistance regime?? Pfft

    2) How long has France and Great Britain hated each other?? Since the dawn of time?? Considering that we used to be a part of Great Britain and that we are still very close allies to them pisses them off probably more than they would ever let on.

    To me, the French are like that blue-chip high school recruit who never pans out in major college football. They are *supposedly* this great force but when push comes to shove, they are the ones that need someone (like the Americans they don't like) to help bail them out.

    The sad thing is that the US will continue to keep helping these ingrates until the end of time AND they will probably still hate us.

    Sorry for sounding arrogant and obnoxious, but it really pisses me off to no end to read **** like this.

    Just goes to show that when you are involved in the world stage like we are, there is always fallout to deal with. It is stuff like this that makes me wish that we didn't get involved into these international issues. Let the French get out of a jam on their own for a change for crying out loud....geez!

    Anyway, wanted to get that off my chest..go ahead and flame me if you must.
     
    #5 Manny Ramirez, Jan 30, 2003
  6. Buck Turgidson

    Buck Turgidson Member

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    We are, and they're doing a spectacular job of ****ing up their own little truly unilateral, neocolonial engagement.

    http://reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=2135923

    The photo is priceless.
     
    #6 Buck Turgidson, Jan 30, 2003
  7. B-Bob

    B-Bob "94-year-old self-described dreamer"
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    I thought they hated us because of ketchup? paging rimbaud, please explain.
     
    #7 B-Bob, Jan 30, 2003
  8. Achebe

    Achebe Member

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    I think they just hate the British, and extend to us.

    Worse. I took the day off to 'cram for an exam'. :( :) :D
     
    #8 Achebe, Jan 30, 2003
  9. glynch

    glynch Member

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    I had an interesting talk with a guy at work today. His son just got back from 6 months as a helicopter repairman in Kuwait. The son is in the reserves (one of the last reserves permitted to return before they cancelled 6 month rotations). The son previously did 4 years active service.

    He says most of the troops are just cooped up largely on the bases. Many Kuwaitis hate us and so the troops don't like to go off base to where there are Kuwaitis. .
     
    #9 glynch, Jan 30, 2003
  10. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Member

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    Colin Powell calls the French situation a "blip" so the situation isn't as bad as it looks. Relations between the governments had been amicable before the ambush. I think this is a publicity stunt for the world to look at the "mighty French" once again. Despite that, they still hold a veto in the permanent Security Council, and we still have the burden of proof upon us.

    I hate the French. The term 'paper tiger' was probably invented by virtue of the French. It seems the only reason they hate us is because their snide ego can't take the hit that their culture and influence hasn't been what it was for the past oh...100 years. Cable companies probably broadcast episodes of Jerry Springer just to rub it in....
     
    #10 Invisible Fan, Jan 30, 2003
  11. arno_ed

    arno_ed Member

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    i think it is not that everybody hate america besides GB, But i think every other country besides GB thinks for them self, and not just try to get on the good side of th USA, ofcourse the USA helped europe in the world wars. but that does not mean europe should do what america says. it is not that i do not like yhe USA, i do not like Bush, and i do not want a war. especially the way Bush is trying to get one. (sorry for the people who disagree with me, it is not that i want to get on people nerves, i'm just givin my oppinion).
    France and GB do not like each other, for as long as men can remember. But France is not the only country who do not supoort the War. My Holland said they would support The USA. but that was the last gevernment, now we get a new one and i hope they oppose the war. do not get me wrong i do not dislike the USA, and i didn't dislike clinton. But i do think Bush isn't thinking of what is best for the world, and if he thinks the USA is the greatest country of the world and the strongest he should think of the world. just My humble opinion
     
    #11 arno_ed, Jan 31, 2003
  12. RocketMan Tex

    RocketMan Tex Member

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    The only thing good about the French is their wine.
     
    #12 RocketMan Tex, Jan 31, 2003
  13. rimbaud

    rimbaud Member
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    I guess since I was paged I have no choice but to respond. Here is my answer: the French do not hate the US or Americans. In all honesty, I experienced nothing but positive reaction from being American when I lived in Paris. Further, there are still many French towns that have annual celebrations to honor the US and Americans (based on whatever days the towns were liberated in WWII). It is interesting to see them running around waving American flags and passing out gum...and then if there are real Americans around...wow.

    In regards to the French government, I personally feel that it is not any kind of jealousy or envy and, unlike the article states, it is not just a matter of who we are or what we do. I think it is a matter of how we do it - and this is not really anything negative about the US. I think it is a matter of mentality. The US and French mentality are so very different and it is hard to explain. France, even if it supports the concept or idea of something, will make a stink if the presentation is not to their liking. In this way I see it similar to how arno_ed stated before me - that France does not ever want to appear as if it is just following along or doing what the US says because of the way the US initiates foreign policy going back to the end of WWII and the US's rise as a world power and then THE world power.

    The French are terribly nationalistic (which grew out of the Revolution) but that, too, is completely different than American nationalism. They talk nonstop about individual rights and liberties and that extends to their own sovereignty. And, yes, England does play a part because there is still bad blood and England goes along willingly with whatever the US says...so France - again just on principle - has to think differently.

    So in summary, France does not hate us and is not our enemy and will generally agree with the US in the long run, they are just going to raise a fuss every now and then to fulfill their self-image.

    Oh, and most of the French I talked to didn't like Clinton...most preferred Bush, sr....of course, most don't like Chirac, yet he keeps getting elected.
     
    #13 rimbaud, Jan 31, 2003
  14. DaDakota

    DaDakota Balance wins
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    I can't believe that the French gave us the statue of liberty....they must have been throwing it out anyway.

    :)

    DD
     
    #14 DaDakota, Jan 31, 2003
  15. B-Bob

    B-Bob "94-year-old self-described dreamer"
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    rimbaud,

    But what about the ketchup factor? just kidding. Thanks for the informed and thoughtful post.
     
    #15 B-Bob, Jan 31, 2003
  16. rimbaud

    rimbaud Member
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    Sorry, I forgot to address this. I think it is obvious that they think of ketchup as too far "beneath them" to even give it credibility by discussing or thinking about it. It would be similar to asking them what their thoughts on peanut butter are...they would just kind of look at you with complete incomprehension in their eyes.
     
    #16 rimbaud, Jan 31, 2003
  17. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Member

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    #17 Invisible Fan, Jan 31, 2003
  18. Mr. Clutch

    Mr. Clutch Member

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    LOL

    That's funny. :D
     
    #18 Mr. Clutch, Jan 31, 2003
  19. PhiSlammaJamma

    PhiSlammaJamma Member

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    They suck at basketball.
     
    #19 PhiSlammaJamma, Jan 31, 2003
  20. ROXRAN

    ROXRAN Member

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    They hate America, but like Texans...Go figure
     
    #20 ROXRAN, Jan 31, 2003
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