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Imagine if A country came and Killed a Million Americans

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by glynch, Jan 20, 2015.

  1. glynch

    glynch Contributing Member

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    Of course proportionatly it would be like ten million Americans were killed by a foreign power. Iraq Wars I and II killed over a million Iraqis between them and the numbers killed weekly now that we cracked their society exceed the 12 killed in France.

    Iraq War II, Dubya's folly, is perhaps the greatest blunder in US history and more Americans are realizing that they were duped to support it.
    People forget that Iraq War I was not necessary or a just war either. Sadam Hussein had agreed to withdraw from Kuwait and was actively doing so when we hastily launched our attack before he could finish withdrawing the last of his troops several days later. Extremely maddening that he only backed down when we sent 500,000 troops over there, and just a couple of days before our deadline, but that doesn't change the fact that the war was unnecessary.

    The Europeans and many Americans are obsessed with those 12 at Charlie , whose death was tragic, but it is a pittance compared to the one hundred thousand times more deaths due to those two wars.

    Stupidly many are manipulated to believe the reason the Muslims in the Middle East hate us is primarily due to their religion-- even though the perpetrators stated years before publicly that they had been radicalized by our brutality at Abu Graib and our Iraq War.

    The American media and mindset might have helped many Americans justify or be unconcerned largely with those million plus Iraqi deaths but this moral ignorance doesn't mean that the people of the Middle East see it that way or have forgotten the million deaths.
     
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  2. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
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    ISIS is not fighting to get the U.S. out of Iraq, they are fighting to make establish a Islamic empire all over the world. Whatever the root for how they got there...maybe it was partly started by world meddling in the middle east (and not just the U.S.) but to say...all of this is because of Iraq War II is a folly.
     
  3. Cohete Rojo

    Cohete Rojo Contributing Member

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    Americans want the benefits of the alliance with Saudi Arabia - whether they disagree with the Iraq wars or not. There hasn't been a major push by anyone or any politician to impose restrictive tariffs on Saudi imports, even though they imprison, whip, and execute people for exactly what Charlie Hebdo did. They want war.
     
  4. bobrek

    bobrek Politics belong in the D & D

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    Where do you get the 1,000,000 number? According to CNN, there were 100,000+ Iraqi soldiers killed. There were nowhere near 900,000 civilians killed.
     
  5. robbie380

    robbie380 ლ(▀̿Ĺ̯▀̿ ̿ლ)
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  6. bobrek

    bobrek Politics belong in the D & D

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  7. Mathloom

    Mathloom Contributing Member

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    Think of it this way. If a large number of Americans were killed during war by Vladimir Putin, would you look to news source Russia Today for the number of civilian casualties?

    What happened in Iraq was more than just the sum of soldiers killed during the period arbitrarily declared by the US commander vaguely as "war". Look at cancer rates pre and post Iraq war (this is really really shocking). Look at people who died of starvation. Look at people who died of sectarian violence because of the staunch US support of an Islamic sect.

    Certainly the broader topic of terrorism in the Middle East has many roots/reasons, but it's absurd to say that the emergence of ISIS in particular is not directly linked to the conditions predictably resulting from the Iraq war. This is not news. This is something any independent middle eastern reporter was predicting before the Iraq war.

    Btw, there was a nation that came and, through battle/disease/colonization, killed over 5% of all Americans. This is, IMO, one of the biggest reasons Americans today are least sympathetic to victims of modern day colonialism. It's because few living people have benefitted more from enslaving people and colonizing land than the very people who make up America today. Not to mention those people have had, perhaps, more say in the affairs of their government than any other people in a similar situation before. That responsibility, as I've said a million times here, can't be shunned. It is amazing to watch people slamming subjects of colonized countries for acting like victims, and then shunning responsibility from the fact that Americans claim freedom, do vote if they want, and definitely accept the results of their political system when it's in their favor.
     
  8. CometsWin

    CometsWin Breaker Breaker One Nine

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    No, it's actually not a "folly". The Genesys of ISIS comes from the prison system the U.S. set up in Iraq. That is where a lot of these clowns in the leadership come from. It sounds like you haven't read anything about it.
     
  9. bobrek

    bobrek Politics belong in the D & D

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    I am looking for any link showing 1,000,000 casualties. Have you found one you could point me to? Obviously glynch must have found one somewhere. He wouldn't just pull that number out of the air.
     
  10. seclusion

    seclusion rip chadwick

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    So 500,000 deaths isn't enough for you? It has to be 1,000,000 for it to make a difference? Pull your head out of your ass please.
     
  11. bobrek

    bobrek Politics belong in the D & D

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    All I want to do is read more about this. I had never heard either the 500,000 or 1,000,000 number. Why are you so upset that I am trying to learn more? Most war casualty numbers are sad.
     
  12. Nook

    Nook Member

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    Only a fool sees something as complicated as the situation in the Middle East as black and white.

    The culture and situation in the Middle East is vastly different than in the USA and Western Europe based on history, religion, wealth and many factors.

    I did not support Bush and the invasion of Iraq as a young man, and I still think it was a mistake with motivations that go way beyond the interest of national security. However the biggest folly? No.... we have done worse, and will do worse in the future. The Middle East is used to violence and brutality, it is surrounded by it. The region is extremely tense and human rights are far down the list on priorities. Unfortunately what happened in Iraq is not unique in the region, and not even in Iraq.

    There were already religious zealots PRIOR to US prison camps being sensationalized world wide. Also, don't forget the same media you deride, is the one that EXPOSED the atrocities involving the USA and Western Europe.

    Do those in the Middle East hate us because of religion? Perhaps some do, but really that is immaterial. Islam is not just a religion, it is an all engulfing culture that controls virtually every aspect of ones life. That includes government, laws, traditions, prayer, morals... everything. That makes an "us against them" mentality easier to embrace and it also makes it easier for the establishment to control poorly educated citizens with very little communication or exposure outside of their neighbors.
     
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  13. Nook

    Nook Member

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    While this is an interesting theory, It also tells me that you are not intimately familiar with America. When Americans are directly exposed to colonialism they often times are horrified. You can look at the strong movement in the USA against South African apartheid and even the movement in the USA to shut down sweat shops. First, the idea that the USA is the "least sympathetic to modern day colonialism" is absurd. China and Russia would make the USA look like boyscouts. Second, the reason the USA citizenry seems indifferent to colonialism is because the USA is not exposed to it. It is insulated by two large oceans and when Americans leave the USA they usually only see bits and pieces of the reality.

    Countries acting in their own best interest is nothing new or shocking. Whether than is the USA or China raping a nation of resources or a small nation attempting to develop chemical weapons.
     
  14. AroundTheWorld

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    The whole post is brilliant, but I had to quote this part. It's something that unfortunately, many people in the West don't understand at all. Because Islam (except for secular Muslims, who follow kind of a stripped-down version of it which just includes the spiritual part, kind of like Christians who only go to church for Christmasm out of tradition) is so all-encompassing, if we, with our Western understanding of freedom of religion, say "they should be free to practice it and we have to be tolerant of all of it", then you have to realize that at the same time we are basically submitting to their rules - above our laws - unless we very clearly define what they are free to practice and what is not acceptable under our laws.

    For followers of the all-encompassing version of Islam, there is no selective following of some rules and not following some other rules which would run counter to Western laws and Western understanding of freedom of religion. It's their rules or the highway. You can see that with the caricatures. So it's your rule that in Islam, your prophet must not be depicted? Fine - but how the hell does your rule apply to me? I never joined your club, therefore I am not bound by your rules. I can do what I want, as long as I follow the laws of my country. They simply don't understand that their rules do not apply to people who are not followers of their religion. They cannot accept that. For them, their rules are above the law. It's fascist and supremacist.

    And that leads to the "us vs. them" mentality Nook is describing.
     
  15. Rocketman1981

    Rocketman1981 Member

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    This was a good post but I think we're ignoring the elephant in the room.

    The whole do they hate our freedom's is really silly, as they're socially more free in Bogota, Bangkok and Amsterdam than they are in the US.

    There was never a US-Arab/Muslim conflict except with their complete support of Israel in the middle east.

    You basically have 7 million people in Israel that we're supporting financially, militarily and at every turn in the UN etc. We went to war and continue to be at war with the Arab/Muslim world because of this issue.

    A lot of Israeli sympathizers were heading up Bush I's administration like Perle, Wolfowitz etc. These are guys that have family in Israel and truly support the nation, and they're shaping US policy towards the region. A lot of the Christian right wingers also support Israel as well.


    I'm not going to debate whether its right or wrong. But our support of 7 million people in Isreal has really adversely affected our relationship with the Arab/Muslim world and has adversely affected our economy, our companies ability to do business abroad and added risk to the global world with terrorism.

    I wish we could just give the Israeli's Montana or some other state in the US as they're costing us a hell of a lot more by setting up shop in the middle of a hornets nest and we're the people getting stung.
     
  16. Nero

    Nero Member

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    If people could only wrap their heads around this concept, the world would be a much safer place. And believe me, what you describe above is only the tip of the iceberg.

    In the 'West', we operate on all kinds of assumptions because we live
     
  17. HamJam

    HamJam Contributing Member

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    I'm trying to pump the brakes, but this is such an ignorant post and seems like you are completely unaware of the history of U.S. colonialism, neo-colonialism, intervention (whatever you want to call it). The atrocities we committed in South America, Central America, the Philippines, Vietnam -- the corrupt and fascistic government we supported, the democratically elected leaders we have helped overthrow, the death squads we have trained...

    Seriously, are you completely unaware of all this? And that is just the atrocities in the last century, and doesn't even mention the colonialism and genocide the country was founded on.

    How can you not be exposed to colonialism when you are perpetrating it?

    And of course it is nothing new for countries to "act in their own interest" (though of course it is not the "country's" interest, but just that of the ruling elite who profit from such endeavors (gaining the profits of the military actions, while the tax payers pay the war expenses)) -- but that doesn't change the fact that this country is very much a leading perpetrator of modern day colonialism.
     
  18. Nero

    Nero Member

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    Grr what the heck forum??

    Sorry about that.. fixing it below:

    If people could only wrap their heads around this concept, the world would be a much safer place. And believe me, what you describe above is only the tip of the iceberg.

    In the 'West', we operate on all kinds of assumptions because we live WITHIN the rather insulated world of our freedoms, and it is human nature to simply view the rest of the world through those assumptions.

    It takes a serious cognitive leap to remove those assumptions and replace them mentally with something completely alien and foreign in order to begin to try to understand the people who live within the foreign and alien reality.

    The reality of living under islam is so radically and fundamentally different from what we experience every day of our lives in the West that it is virtually impossible to comprehend. And so our minds just take the shortcut of assuming 'oh, they are people just like us, same issues, same problems, being offended at the same 'unfairnesses', etc..'

    But that is wrong. And it is horrifically dangerous.

    The really insidious thing is, the truly dangerous ones understand us and our weaknesses perfectly well, and use it to their full advantage, while very few people on this side of the ideological divide do the same.

    It is truly frightening.
     
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  19. val_modus

    val_modus Member

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    Anyone remember back in 1961 when French police killed nearly 300 Algerian demonstrators protesting for Algerian independence IN France?
     
  20. glynch

    glynch Contributing Member

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    Before providing links about the million Iraqis we killed. Wouldn't American hate and want to kill foreign invaders who did that? Would we want to do it regardless of our religion or even our lack of religion? What was our response to the 3,000 killed in 9/11?

    If you deliberately target the water purification and sewerage plants in major cities and then try to embargo repair equipment and chlorine to purify water and infant death skyrocket is that not due to the bombing. Apologists for our two Iraq Wars want to count only deaths of uniformed soldiers or perhaps civilians if directly killed by bombs, guns or other armaments. How about old people suddenly having to live outdoors without electricity, fans or clean water if they die is this just due to natural causes.

    Iraq War II


    Nearly half a million people have died from war-related causes in Iraq since the US-led invasion in 2003, according to an academic study published in the United States on Tuesday.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/15/iraq-death-toll_n_4102855.html

    Iraq War I


    Published on Friday, July 21, 2000 at 1:23 PM ET by Reuters


    UN Says Sanctions Have Killed Some 500,000 Iraqi Children





    BAGHDAD - A senior U.N. official said Friday about half a million children under the age of 5 have died in Iraq since the imposition of U.N. sanctions 10 years ago.
    Anupama Rao Singh, country director for the U.N. Children's Fund (UNICEF), made the estimate in an interview with Reuters.

    ``In absolute terms we estimate that perhaps about half a million children under 5 years of age have died, who ordinarily would not have died had the decline in mortality that was prevalent over the 70s and the 80s continued through the 90s,'' she said.

    A UNICEF survey published in August showed the mortality rate among Iraqi children under 5 had more than doubled in the government-controlled south and center of Iraq during the sanctions.

    Baghdad said the UNICEF survey proved that the sanctions were killing thousands of children every month and called for an immediate end to the embargo.

    Rao Sigh blamed malnutrition for the high mortality rate among children.

    ``Nutrition was not a public health problem in Iraq in the 80s. It emerged as a major problem in the 90s and it increased steadily till about 1996,'' Singh said.

    She said since the start of the U.N. oil-for-food program, malnutrition rates among children had stabilized, but death rates remained extremely high

    http://www.commondreams.org/headlines/072100-03.htm

    Then of course we have the famous quote by Madeline Albright that the deaths of these infants was "worth it."

    ****
    STAHL, Lesley. Lesley Stahl to Madeleine Albright: "Half a million [Iraqi] children have died ... is the price worth it?"






    STAHL, Lesley. Lesley Stahl to Madeleine Albright: "Half a million [Iraqi] children have died ... is the price worth it?"





    Lesley Stahl (born December 16, 1941) is a Jewish American television journalist. Since 1991, she has reported for CBS on 60 Minutes. A graduate of Wheaton College, her career received a boost from her coverage of the Watergate scandal. In October 2007, Nicolas Sarkozy, President of France, war criminal, war monger and pro-Zionist, stood up and walked away from an interview with Lesley Stahl, because she asked him about his relationship with his soon-to-be estranged spouse (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesley_Stahl ).

    Lesley Stahl is famous for asking former Secretary of State (1997-2001) Madeleine Albright on “60 Minutes” in 1996 about the “half a million children” who had died under Sanctions on Iraq.

    On May 12, 1996, Albright defended UN sanctions against Iraq on a “60 Minutes” segment in which Lesley Stahl asked her "We have heard that half a million children have died. I mean, that's more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?" and Albright replied "we think the price is worth it." . [1].
    [1]. Lesley Stahl and Madeleine Albright quoted in “Madeleine Albright”, Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madeleine_Albright .
     

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