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If Miles and Miller are gone, I hope we don't pick Moiso!

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by Sherlock, Jun 12, 2000.

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  1. Sherlock

    Sherlock Member

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    It all depends on what Atlanta does. They are pivotal to what happens to Houston, if we don't trade up in the draft.

    If they pick Miller, which appears to be the case, Miles won't get past Chicago at #7. If they pick Miles, Chicago will probably take Alexander at #7. If they take Alexander, Chicago will probably take Johnson, leaving Miller to us, unless Cleveland decides not to take the Greek center. It doesn't look too good for us at #9.

    I've been hearing how we should take Moiso at #9, since Miles and Miller will be gone. I believe this is a false perception of our need. We have KT. Moiso isn't any better, so why would we pick him? Martin or Swift would be an upgrade, but not Moiso. Since we are so hot on Swift, I think people are expecting us to take a PF, and since Moiso is the next best PF, they assume we'll take him. We need a SF and Center, not a PF, unless he's better than KT.

    If Martin, Swift, Miles, or Miller are already gone, then there's nothing left on the board that meets our needs. So we have to either trade the pick to someone who needs the marquee guards on the board, or pick the best player left on the board. I'd love us to trade it to someone for their later pick and a pick in next year's draft. Then grab someone like N'Diaye or Porter, that would be good role players. This draft is deep in role players, but not in stars.

    That would have to be Deshawn Stephenson, the only future star left, even if he takes time to develop.

    This offseason, the Rockets will probably trade for a PF using Cato in trade, such as Croshere, and a center using Drew, such as Kandi. Then next year, we'll either draft a good center or sign a FA, such as Duncan or Webber. So this draft is not our only rebuilding step.

    We can afford to take Stephenson with this pick. We can't afford to take a non-lottery player no better than KT.

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    #1 Sherlock, Jun 12, 2000
  2. Hobbs

    Hobbs Member

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    I think you're overestimating in several areas (Drew landing a center and Kenny Thomas being a good player for 2 examples) and underestimating Moiso.

    Moiso can play the 3 or 4. He has more length than Thomas and has more athletic ability. His game might resemble Thomas' in that he has that outside jumper and probably relies on it too much, but the potential is there for a much superior player than Thomas.

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    #2 Hobbs, Jun 12, 2000
  3. playahata

    playahata Member

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    KT will never be our answer at the 4. He is too short, and every 4 either posts him up or shoots right over him. Moiso is long, athletic, and has the soft stroke Rudy likes. He also has some post game.

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    #3 playahata, Jun 12, 2000
  4. outseam

    outseam Member

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    Houston picks Moiso @ pick #9, trades him (plus other stuff) to the Clippers for Taylor (whatever they're PF's name is)?

    just thought



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    #4 outseam, Jun 12, 2000
  5. MManal

    MManal Member

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    Playahata and Hobbs,

    I am glad someone is finally pointing out that Kenny Thomas is not the answer to this team's needs at the PF spot. I think he will be a very good backup PF, but he is just not the answer as the future PF. Sorry to break it down this way, but the Rockets need a long, athletic PF not a short, fat one. The question you have to ask yourself, do you want to create matchup problems for other teams or do you want other teams to have matchup advantages on you? A big part of matchup advantages at the PF spot in this day and age is height. Did anyone notice that when Rasheed Wallace would turn around and shoot with arms extended in the playoffs that he was almost impossible to stop? Either he'd make it or miss but his opponent could do little to prevent him when he was making his move in the low block. Tim Duncan, Chris Webber, Kevin Garnett are all the same way. The common thread among all these players is that they are long and athletic. This is why I dont think Elton Brand is anything special. Just wait till he faces other top notch PFs in the playoffs down the road when the game breaks down into matchups and halfcourt style, just watch how inadequate he looks.

    In the playoffs, you can have all these beautfilly scripted halfcourt sets with backdoor cuts, motion away from the ball etc. However, they begin to break down a lot esp in crunch time and that is when you absolutely have to rely on your matchups. The Bulls did it very successfully as at the end of the games when the triangle started to break down, they just spread the floor, threw it to Jordan and let him create. They knew that they would have a matchup advantage every night. The Jazz never could win anything as they were pretty bad at freelance basketball. They made it as far as they did a few yrs b/c Malone could win his matchup basically all the time and that would create for the rest of the team, but that wasnt near enough to take them over the hump. Their guards where incapable of creating their own offense partly b/c of height and partly b/c they just are not those types of players.

    The Rockets already have two players in Steve Francis and Cuttino Mobley that are excellent free lance players and can create something when the offense breaks down. Imagine how many more late 4th qtr options this team will have with an athletic 6-11 player up front. Jerome Moiso at nearly 6-11 can create a lot more matchup problems just with his sheer height than a 6-7 Kenny Thomas who basically cannot. Can you imagine in a few yrs when the Rockets are back in the playoffs that KT would have to matchup against Webber, Duncan, Garnett, etc. Can you imagine what a disaster that would be when the game slows down? Sure he'd be able to fight them for position sometimes, but they would shoot over him at will, and the Rockets team defense would have some major strain on it.


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    #5 MManal, Jun 12, 2000
  6. The Cat

    The Cat Member

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    Mo Taylor? No way. I'd rather have Kenny or Moiso. If you play about 37 minutes a night at the PF spot and can only grab 5 rebounds, it should tell you something. We need a hard-nosed, tough PF like Croshere or Brian Grant that is a monster on defense and the boards. That is completely the opposite of Taylor.

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    #6 The Cat, Jun 12, 2000
  7. Sherlock

    Sherlock Member

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    My point about KT is not that he is our answer at PF, but that we shouldn't draft someone at PF unless they are the answer at PF, and I don't believe that Moiso is any better, outside of being taller.

    KT was rated the 11th best player from last years draft according to rookie of the year balloting. He can score, has good footwork, and even Duncan said "he really liked that kid." He's not as bad as you guys are saying.

    For the first time in quite a few years, we have a lottery pick. It is imperative we not waste this pick. It should be used for a lottery player, and I don't believe Moiso fits that description. Unfortunately, the lottery players at SF, C, and PF which meet our needs are going to probably already be gone.

    We'd be better off:
    <OL>[*]trading the pick to someone who get's value for their team at guard,(like Alexander, Johnson, Cleeves, Barkley, etc.) who will trade us a young player of similar value whom we need in the frontcourt. (like Croshere, Lewis, etc.)
    [*] Packaging the pick with players like Cato, Drew, KT, Rogers, or Williams to someone to get a great developing frontcourt player.
    [*] trading the pick for a pick in next year's deeper draft to someone like Golden State who is historically in the lottery who needs a guard.
    [*] Taking a project player, like Stephenson, who although we don't need another guard, will be a future star that we can trade for a star frontcourt player as we build.
    [*] Taking a guard like Johnson and converting him into a SF.
    [*] Trading up in the draft to get Miles or Swift. The problem is that Swift's perceived value has gone up so high, we wouldn't be able to give enough to get him at this stage. I'd be willing to lose Cato to get Miles. Then make other trades to replace him at center.
    [*] Trading down to get 2 picks or one this year and one next year, when the draft is deeper with great players. Moiso will be a "good" player. This draft is very deep in "good" players, but not in great ones. If we traded down and picked up good players like Harvey, Thomas, Carrawell, Mottola, Samake, N'Diaye, Collier, Brown, Porter, Kapono and Mickael, we could add a few depth players that we need to build on, and one of them could turn out great, like Mobely did.
    [/list=a]

    We just can't waste this pick on one good player. We either need a great player or multiple good players, that we later package together to get a great player.

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    #7 Sherlock, Jun 12, 2000
  8. alaskansnowman

    alaskansnowman Member

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    With a few years of developing, Moiso could be our answer at power forward. Players improve... I've been saying this all along about kenny Thomas, but KT does not have the size that Moiso has. And that's the main reason why nobody believes in my boy KT, because his defense will suffer against bigger players.

    KT can become a good power forward with development, but his size just limits his true potential. That is not the case with Moiso.

    Now, if you take somebody who's already physically gifted like Moiso and develop him, there's no reason why he can't grow to become a good starting power forward.



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    #8 alaskansnowman, Jun 12, 2000
  9. AroundTheWorld

    AroundTheWorld Member

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    This has probably already been discussed extensively, but looking at Kenny Thomas' size and stats, all these numbers look more like typical SF numbers to me, also that he likes to shoot the three. Wouldn't it be possible to let him play SF and draft someone at least 6'10 to play PF?
     
    #9 AroundTheWorld, Jun 12, 2000
  10. NIKEstrad

    NIKEstrad Member

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    Sherlock-All that means, is that he had the 11th best immediate impact. Long term, he's not gonna be much better. Long term, rookies like Baron Davis, Corey Maggette, and Jonathan Bender, and many more will have better careers than him. Moiso is a lot closer to the answer than KT. Athletic big men with outside range aren't exactly a dime a dozen. KT is much better suited as a 6th or 7th man.

    Mike Miller is a lot closer to Walt Williams skill wise than Moiso is to Thomas.

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    #10 NIKEstrad, Jun 12, 2000
  11. MManal

    MManal Member

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    Alaskan, good points, thats what I feel on the situation. If Moiso had proven everything that people are questioning, then he would not be available at the 9th pick. With some work with the coaching staff, he definitely has the potential to be the answer at the PF position. KT just does not b/c he is too short. When you are playing a game of matchups in the playoffs, height at the PF spot is very important. Moiso has the capability of being a long, athletic 6-11 PF that score inside and outside. Players like that are so difficult to match up against. Lets suppose hypothetically that in 3 yrs KT and Moiso had the same skills, Moiso would still be a lot more valuable b/c he has 3-4 inches in height and the intangible athleticism. No matter what KT does, he wont be as athletic as Moiso and wont have Moiso's height and length.

    Also, I would like to trade up for Darius Miles but not at the expense of Cato. If it could be done for KT and Drew I'd jump on it. The only way I'd part with Cato in this draft is to move up into the top two. You can have all the versatility and athletic forwards you want but in this frontcourt loaded Western Conference you are just not going to win with a doughnut in the middle. I am not very enamored by any of the replacements that have been mentioned. Just look at Phoenix and Minnesota, they are so talented in other areas but are going nowhere b/c they are way too soft in the middle.

    I would deal Cato and the 9 for the 2 to get Swift b/c he would replace all the shot blocking and defense up front that leaves with Cato. Darius Miles is looked more as a versatile SF that plays excellent defense on the perimeter and can block some shots but is not the type of player like Swift or Martin that can seal off the paint.

    Also, Seattle is not going to give Lewis for the 9th pick. The only way he leaves there is if the Bulls or Magic put more money on the table than they can match. I like Austin Croshere, but I would not give the 9th pick or Cato for him.

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    #11 MManal, Jun 12, 2000
  12. rocketsfan34

    rocketsfan34 Member

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    Sherlock:

    Some wrong misconceptions...

    1. You are overestimating trade offers. If it were that simple, it would have been done already. Anyways, why trade away the 9th for Croshere, when you could possibly get both?

    2. Moiso is much more of the answer at the PF spot than Kenny. Many of the posts before mine have explained this well enough.

    3. Trading for great players aren't as exactly as you precieve it. You have been spoiled by the Rockets doing it the past few years. We got lucky with the Francis trade. Rarely do star players ever get traded for a bunch of role players unless forced to.



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    #12 rocketsfan34, Jun 12, 2000
  13. jerinrulz

    jerinrulz Member

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    Dont worry im gonna go straight back to retirement. But lemme just say this, how long has it been since the Rockets had someone named JEROME?
    too long. And if thats not enough, the guy has game! If you havent figured it out yet, certain things will always bring me out of my self imposed retirement/salute to Popeye, but I will always return. As my boy Alaskan says, DAS Vidana

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    [This message has been edited by jerinrulz (edited June 12, 2000).]
     
    #13 jerinrulz, Jun 12, 2000
  14. writhe

    writhe Member

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    I'll take #5:

    Draft Johnson and have him play the 3.
     
    #14 writhe, Jun 12, 2000
  15. Sherlock

    Sherlock Member

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    rocketsfan34 You wrote:

    1. You are overestimating trade offers. If it were that simple, it would have been done already. Anyways, why trade away the 9th for Croshere, when you could possibly get both?

    If I felt I needed to upgrade Kenny, which I think we eventually need to do, I'd take Croshere over any power forward I could get at #9. The only better players in this draft are Martin and Swift, and it would cost too much to get to the top 3 spots where they will go. Of course, if I could get a Miles or Miller at #9, and still do a sign and trade for Croshere, then I'd do it, even if it meant losing Cato. I think there is a trade we can do with LAC for Kandi to replace Cato using Drew and KT, if we get Croshere.

    2. Moiso is much more of the answer at the PF spot than Kenny. Many of the posts before mine have explained this well enough.

    He may be more, since he's taller, but not theanswer. I don't believe Moiso is the answer to go up against Malone, Wallace, Webber, McDeyss, and Finley in the West. He may be tall, but he's not stout. He'd get pushed around worse than KT.

    3. Trading for great players aren't as exactly as you precieve it. You have been spoiled by the Rockets doing it the past few years. We got lucky with the Francis trade. Rarely do star players ever get traded for a bunch of role players unless forced to.

    There is no doubt that the Rockets continue to spoil me. I hope they don't quit. They have been very good at collecting good players, and trading them for great players like Barkley, Drexler, Pippen, Francis and draft picks over the last few years. I don't see them stopping this approach. It got done back to us by Pippen. Guys who will leave or get the best they can in a sign and trade for their team if its where they want to go. This summer, that will be guys like Croshere, Outlaw, Duncan, Fortson, Robinson, Thomas, Lewis, and perhaps Kandi and J.Oneal. The Rockets will get another great frontcourt guy in FA or trade somehow this summer, even if it means trading our pick. You watch. Next year we will pick another one in the draft, and sign a FA after Dream retires. Our rebuilding is far from done.


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    #15 Sherlock, Jun 12, 2000
  16. JayZ750

    JayZ750 Member

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    Why don't we just get DEmarr Johnson
    He has just as much "potential" as Moiso and also complements our offense extremely well. He would be a lamar odom like small forward but more concentrating on shooting and the mid to outside game. Once he develops for a year or two, with Francis and Mobley running the show and penetrating, Johnson's game will perfectly blend in with theirs, I think!

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    #16 JayZ750, Jun 12, 2000
  17. MManal

    MManal Member

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    The problem with setting our sights on DerMarr Johnson is that he will likely be gone in the first 8 picks. The Cavs have been scared off on Tsakalidis b/c he may not be able to play in the NBA due to being locked into his European contract for 4 yrs. It is questionable whether or not that can be bought out. Thus, their radar is now set for DerMarr Johnson.

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    #17 MManal, Jun 12, 2000
  18. MManal

    MManal Member

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    He may be more, since he's taller, but not theanswer. I don't believe Moiso is the answer to go up against Malone, Wallace, Webber, McDeyss, and Finley in the West. He may be tall, but he's not stout. He'd get pushed around worse than KT.

    Jerome Moiso is near 6-11 and weighs 230 pounds. Antonio McDyess is 6-9 240, Chris Webber is 6-10 245 and Rasheed Wallace is 6-11 225. Moiso could easily add 10-15 pounds of bulk in the next yr to be able to go against these players. Exactly how is Kenny Thomas going to grow from 6-7 to 6-10? Also Micheal Finley is a small forward not a power forward.

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    #18 MManal, Jun 12, 2000
  19. alaskansnowman

    alaskansnowman Member

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    jewin... hahahahahahahaha

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    [This message has been edited by alaskansnowman (edited June 12, 2000).]
     
    #19 alaskansnowman, Jun 12, 2000
  20. Da Man

    Da Man Member
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    I'm sorry, but if Jerome Moiso outweighs Rasheed Wallace.....then Scotty Brooks outweighs Stanley Roberts.

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    #20 Da Man, Jun 13, 2000
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