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I will never vote for Hillary Clinton

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Batman Jones, Mar 7, 2008.

  1. Batman Jones

    Batman Jones Member

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    She's run a dirty campaign for months now, but in the days since the March 4 contests she's crossed the final line. She will never get a vote from this Democrat. Ever.
     
  2. Drexlerfan22

    Drexlerfan22 Member

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    There's no way I'd ever vote for her, either.

    What's so amusing to me is all the republicans who are Hillary's biggest supporters as of late... for no other reason than they know McCain vs. Hillary is an easy victory, and McCain vs. Obama is more difficult.

    People never cease to amaze me...
     
  3. Batman Jones

    Batman Jones Member

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    In the last couple days she's crossed the final line, confirming she cares more about her own career than electing a Democrat in November.

    Deckard, don't ever suggest again that I should vote Clinton over McCain when Clinton just spent the last two days suggesting McCain is more qualified to be commander in chief than the Democratic frontrunner.

    The DNC should revoke her credentials to the convention like they did to the last "Democrat" that endorsed McCain.
     
  4. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Member

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    It's quite clear that you don't like Hillary because you're sexist, and not because she's calculating, self-serving, and willing to highjack a party for her own interests.
     
  5. Batman Jones

    Batman Jones Member

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    THE NEW REPUBLIC
    http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=ba30ff16-a5af-4035-a883-cf15ffee406c

    Go Already!
    by Jonathan Chait
    Hillary Clinton, fratricidal maniac.
    Post Date Thursday, March 06, 2008


    The morning after Tuesday's primaries, Hillary Clinton's campaign released a memo titled "The Path to the Presidency." I eagerly dug into the paper, figuring it would explain how Clinton would obtain the Democratic nomination despite an enormous deficit in delegates. Instead, the memo offered a series of arguments as to why Clinton should run against John McCain--i.e., "Hillary is seen as the one who can get the job done"--but nothing about how she actually could. Is she planning a third-party run? Does she think Obama is going to die? The memo does not say.

    The reason it doesn't say is that Clinton's path to the nomination is pretty repulsive. She isn't going to win at the polls. Barack Obama has a lead of 144 pledged delegates. That may not sound like a lot in a 4,000-delegate race, but it is. Clinton's Ohio win reduced that total by only nine. She would need 15 more Ohios to pull even with Obama. She isn't going to do much to dent, let alone eliminate, his lead.

    That means, as we all have grown tired of hearing, that she would need to win with superdelegates. But, with most superdelegates already committed, Clinton would need to capture the remaining ones by a margin of better than two to one. And superdelegates are going to be extremely reluctant to overturn an elected delegate lead the size of Obama's. The only way to lessen that reluctance would be to destroy Obama's general election viability, so that superdelegates had no choice but to hand the nomination to her. Hence her flurry of attacks, her oddly qualified response as to whether Obama is a Muslim ("not as far as I know"), her repeated suggestions that John McCain is more qualified.


    Clinton's justification for this strategy is that she needs to toughen up Obama for the general election-if he can't handle her attacks, he'll never stand up to the vast right-wing conspiracy. Without her hazing, warns the Clinton memo, "Democrats may have a nominee who will be a lightening rod of controversy." So Clinton's offensive against the likely nominee is really an act of selflessness. And here I was thinking she was maniacally pursuing her slim thread of a chance, not caring--or possibly even hoping, with an eye toward 2012-that she would destroy Obama's chances of defeating McCain in the process. I feel ashamed for having suspected her motives.

    Still, there are a few flaws in Clinton's trial-by-smear method. The first is that her attacks on Obama are not a fair proxy for what he'd endure in the general election, because attacks are harder to refute when they come from within one's own party. Indeed, Clinton is saying almost exactly the same things about Obama that McCain is: He's inexperienced, lacking in substance, unequipped to handle foreign policy. As The Washington Monthly's Christina Larson has pointed out, in recent weeks the nightly newscasts have consisted of Clinton attacking Obama, McCain attacking Obama, and then Obama trying to defend himself and still get out his own message. If Obama's the nominee, he won't have a high-profile Democrat validating McCain's message every day.

    Second, Obama can't "test" Clinton the way she can test him. While she likes to claim that she beat the Republican attack machine, it's more accurate to say that she survived with heavy damage. Clinton is a wildly polarizing figure, with disapproval ratings at or near 50 percent. But, because she earned the intense loyalty of core Democratic partisans, Obama has to tread gingerly around her vulnerabilities. There is a big bundle of ethical issues from the 1990s that Obama has not raised because he can't associate himself with what partisan Democrats (but not Republicans or swing voters) regard as a pure GOP witch hunt.

    What's more, Clinton has benefited from a favorable gender dynamic that won't exist in the fall. (In the Democratic primary, female voters have outnumbered males by nearly three to two.) Clinton's claim to being a tough, tested potential commander-in-chief has gone almost unchallenged. Obama could reply that being First Lady doesn't qualify you to serve as commander-in-chief, but he won't quite say that, because feminists are an important chunk of the Democratic electorate. John McCain wouldn't be so reluctant.

    Third, negative campaigning is a negative-sum activity. Both the attacker and the attackee tend to see their popularity drop. Usually, the victim's popularity drops farther than the perpetrator's, which is why negative campaigning works. But it doesn't work so well in primaries, where the winner has to go on to another election.

    Clinton's path to the nomination, then, involves the following steps: kneecap an eloquent, inspiring, reform-minded young leader who happens to be the first serious African American presidential candidate (meanwhile cementing her own reputation for Nixonian ruthlessness) and then win a contested convention by persuading party elites to override the results at the polls. The plan may also involve trying to seat the Michigan and Florida delegations, after having explicitly agreed that the results would not count toward delegate totals. Oh, and her campaign has periodically hinted that some of Obama's elected delegates might break off and support her. I don't think she'd be in a position to defeat Hitler's dog in November, let alone a popular war hero.

    Some Clinton supporters, like my friend (and historian) David Greenberg, have been assuring us that lengthy primary fights go on all the time and that the winner doesn't necessarily suffer a mortal wound in the process. But Clinton's kamikaze mission is likely to be unusually damaging. Not only is the opportunity cost--to wrap up the nomination, and spend John McCain into the ground for four months--uniquely high, but the venue could not be less convenient. Pennsylvania is a swing state that Democrats will almost certainly need to win in November, and Clinton will spend seven weeks and millions of dollars there making the case that Obama is unfit to set foot in the White House. You couldn't create a more damaging scenario if you tried.

    Imagine in 2000, or 2004, that George W. Bush faced a primary fight that came down to Florida (his November must-win state). Imagine his opponent decided to spend seven weeks pounding home the theme that Bush had a dangerous plan to privatize Social Security. Would this have improved Bush's chances of defeating the Democrats? Would his party have stood for it?
     
  6. nyquil82

    nyquil82 Member

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    If it comes down to Clinton/McCain, I am probably leaning towards McCain for several reasons:

    1. Clinton is and always has been a self-serving individual. There is no doubt in my mind she looks after #1. I don't doubt her intelligence though, she is the smartest candidate. I just don't trust her with power.

    2. McCain is presidential, he's been smeared tremendously for being in bed with the wrong people for too long. Aside from supporting the war, he is the type of Republican that is much better than whatever else the party has to offer.

    3. Whoever wins is going to have a tough term cleaning all the cluster#ucks created by the Bush administration. I have little faith that any candidate can clean it up. When they inevitably fail at undoing the mess in Iraq and the economy, I'd prefer that the Republican party take the hit for their own mistakes. McCain is also so hated by the far right members of the RNC, it's sure to split the party apart or force them to drop dangerous groups they have been pandering to.
     
  7. giddyup

    giddyup Member

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    And apparently you care more about the Democratic Party than.... what?
     
  8. basso

    basso Member
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    [​IMG]

    i'm curious what you see as beyond the pale batman (no worries, we're on the same side here- there is no way i'd ever vote for HRC), but her "attacks" seem pretty standard campaign fare (relatively mild when considered against some of the stuff that's been leveled at GWB in years past), some of it's accurate, some not, but i have yet to see anything that really constitutes a "smear," although Bill's South Carolina comments were pretty despicable.
     
  9. pippendagimp

    pippendagimp Member

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    Even just seeing hillaroid's name in a thread title makes me want to puke. Now that's REAL hate :D
     
  10. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Member

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    I agree, and I think a split government with a moderate leaning Republican might be able to enact painful top down economic reforms moreso than a Hillary Clinton presidency. The same might even apply to Obama.
     
  11. FranchiseBlade

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    I won't vote for Clinton, and I won't vote for McCain. I'll vote socialist party if those are the two candidates.

    Clinton has done things this campaign that haven't been done before. She's started websites for the sole purpose of attacking her candidate. Strictly negative websites. That was the stated purpose of those websites.

    Then lately saying that McCain would be a better commander and Chief is outrageous.

    Furthermore we find out that it was her campaign that met with the Canadian govt. to tell them not to worry about her campaign rhetoric regarding NAFTA, etc. She's all negative all the time now.
     
    #11 FranchiseBlade, Mar 7, 2008
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2008
  12. bigtexxx

    bigtexxx Member

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    Batman, we will stand together as brothers in arms as McCain supporters. Welcome to the party, my friend!
     
  13. ROCKET RICH NYC

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    This is the Clinton machine at work. They have been doing this for years. Why are you surprised? However, your candidate is no less holier than thou either. He has no choice but to stoop to their level. Your candidate is no saint either. He's done his fair share of political shadyness in his past as well. Go look in Chicago and see how he backstabbed Alice Parker to become Illinois Senator.

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-070403obama-ballot,1,57567.story

    Like I said tho, Obama has no choice but to play dirty politics. He has to in order to survive the Clinton Machine at work.
     
  14. mc mark

    mc mark Member

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    I’m not to the point…yet…where I will unequivocally say that I won’t vote for her. But I’m getting dam close.

    And I blame you Batman! ;)

    At your urging I changed my party affiliation from independent to democrat just so I could vote in the New York primary. Maybe that was the wrong reason to do that but there it is. But Hillary IMO seems to have put her ambition above the party and some of her tactics are right out of the Karl Rove, republican playbook on winning elections.

    If she somehow gets the nomination I seriously don’t know what I’ll do. For the first time in 28 years of elections I could see myself staying home. And that makes me sad. Sad for myself and sad for America.

    McCain v Clinton? The same old, tired, divisive politics. BORING
     
  15. bigtexxx

    bigtexxx Member

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  16. FranchiseBlade

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    I don't know, if someone had phony, or forged signatures on a sheet, I think they are the ones playing it dirty. To challenge that is legitimate. Also the other big point the article makes is if Palmer gave him an informal nod, or an endorsement. That's pretty nitpicky, and even if Obama did exaggerate that it is nowhere what Hillary's been doing. The fact that she'd give Obama either the informal nod, or an endorsement shows that she wasn't too offended by his challenge to her petition.
     
  17. tested911

    tested911 Member

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    1st I'm not voting for Hillary either!!

    It doesn't surprise me, if you were running a campaign for the presidential office wouldn't you try to win it? The republicans have an easy time right now all they have to do is get the voters to vote for Hillary and they have a shot!! 2nd since they nominated there GOP candidate already they have to try and get on the news somehow because all eyes for the next 2-3 months will just be on the democrats..

    Obama '08 - I Believe... :D
     
  18. The Cat

    The Cat Member

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    More Republicans voted for Obama than Hillary in Texas, and the only poll taken after the March 4 contests shows Hillary doing better against McCain than Obama against McCain. Try again...
     
  19. The Cat

    The Cat Member

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    This is a broken record by now, but pledged delegates are not the will of the people either. If she wins the overall popular vote -- which is definitely still a possibility -- she will have a very legitimate case to superdelegates.

    I would never vote for her in 2012 if she dropped out. She has millions of dollars in support, millions after millions of overall votes, and stands a very decent chance of collecting a majority of Democratic primary votes for the nomination. I would consider it very irresponsible and inconsiderate of her to drop out at this point, and I'm glad she's not.
     
  20. tested911

    tested911 Member

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    That is one poll after March 4? How about the Dozens and Dozens of polls before that indicating Obama had the best chance of defeating McCain?
     

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