http://www.thestate.com/mld/thestate/news/nation/3568704.htm School 'pledge' protest goes before court By BARNINI CHAKRABORTY The Associated Press Atlanta -- A federal appeals court heard arguments Friday on whether an Alabama school system had the right to discipline a student who stood silently with his fist raised rather than recite the Pledge of Allegiance. The student, Michael Holloman, a high school senior from Parrish, Ala., who has since graduated, was spanked three times with a wooden paddle and given a written reprimand. The case was argued before the 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Atlanta only days after another federal appeals court ruled that the pledge is unconstitutional because of the words "under God." The attorney for the school board in Walker County, Ala., told the judges that Holloman was punished two years ago for disrupting class, not for refusing to say the pledge. "He acted out, and he has attempted to cloak his behavior in the First Amendment," attorney Russell Robertson said. Robertson said a teacher sent Holloman to the principal's office after receiving several complaints from other students who said they were unable to say the pledge because of Holloman's actions. But Holloman's lawyer, Charles Tatum, said his client did not disrupt the class. He said raising a fist in the air was a form of speech, similar to placing a hand over your heart when saying the pledge. "You've got a right to disagree with things that are seen as morally and politically correct in this country," Tatum said. Holloman was not present during Friday's arguments. Court papers said Walker County school board policy requires students to say the pledge and salute the flag during the day's first class. The policy also requires students to sit through "prayer requests" and a moment of silence. The suit, filed two years ago in federal court, said Walker County's policy of requiring the pledge violated students' rights of free speech, expression and freedom of religion. Holloman is appealing a federal judge's decision last year to dismiss the case. Tatum said the case differs from the one considered by the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco. "This issue in our case is related to whether a student can be punished for refusal to say the pledge more so than the issue of whether the pledge is constitutional," Tatum said. The 9th Circuit ruling governs only the states of Alaska, Arizona, California, Hawaii, Idaho, Montana, Nevada, Oregon and Washington.
I see the light!! Now I know why we shouldn't say the pledge anymore! I mean, with all these senior high school students getting spanked, I can see why they would do away with the pledge.
Actually, I know you meant this to be sarcastic but I couldn't help but laugh. It is pretty funny because, like you said, how many seniors in high school are getting spanked? I'm picturing some 6'3" linebacker and a 5'8" vice principal saying, "Ok, son, take it like a man."
Space Ghost I'm not sure exactly what you mean. I understand that this is just a sarcastic reply, but do you really think that it's ok that a student was physically disciplined because he wouldn't say the pledge? Or do you just not care that an episode straight out of Nazi Germany just took place in our country?
I don't know why he had to raise his fist, but I remember standing in silence out of respect for my country.
I'm surprised corporal punishment (in the form of spanking) is still allowed, especially at the high school level. Then again, not all southern states have modernized their laws yet... Not that what he did was right, but there are other ways to deal with his actions. Related to this topic, though, is that Missouri passed a bill today making the Pledge mandatory for all school age kids. The governor signed it into law, all the while knowing how the 9th court had ruled.
wait a minute, in the "Pledge of Allegiance" thread when I said that people i knew were reprimanded for refusing to state the pledge back in grade school... everyone was quick to jump on me and cite the West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette so what the hell happened here, huh?
The irony is that the majority of kids could care less. This is really about parents trying to make some statement through their kids. You wanna make a statement? Try to make it mandatory to say the pledge at your job or you get fired. Let's see how far that one makes it. It's the same with prayer in school. Hell, I went to a conservative Christian school in grade school and another in high school. We had chapel every week and religion class every day. Even there, prayer was viewed as more of a chore when it came to bored 10-year-olds. I think that if adults are so hell bent on having prayer or the pledge or whatever for their kids, they should try to make it mandatory in their job. Then, try to explain to your Asian or Indian friends why it is ok for them to pray to God and not Shiva or Buddha. I get the sense that most adults wouldn't be as willing to have to confront their own peers when it came to the workplace but they don't mind sending their kids in to do the same. Additionally, not to get off on corporal punishment here, but school is supposed to be preparing kids for the workplace - at least that's what most boards of education say and most taxpayers. Would you slap the crap out of an employee if they did something wrong? Again, this is a case of setting LOWER standards for adults than we are willing to accept for children. It's not really about spanking, it's about equity.
yeah, im sure someone not not saying the pledge is gonna distract me from saying it. Those kids must be out to get him
Jeff, what do you mean? It's not the kids' job to confront anybody... If schools hadn't turned into such dangerous and unconstructive places, do you think you would see the zeal over this issue that we now see? This is not the country that our forefathers founded or even foresaw. They were men of Christian tradition-- some moreso than others. There is Christian tradition squirreled away everywhere in our governmental institutions and now we want to look back and second guess the language of The Constitution. In my opinion, it was not all that precisely expressed because they couldn't imagine the changes that would have taken place over the next 200+ years. It's a tricky question: how much should the country adapt to the citizens and how much should the citizens adapt to the country. I favor the weight on the latter otherwise you have a rudderless development.
This isn't about forefathers or tradition. This is about holding your kids to different standards than you hold yourself. Adults don't demand things like reciting the pledge or prayer from their co-workers. Yet, we ask our children to bear that standard. Turn the other cheek. Let he who is among you who is without sin cast the first stone. Love thy neighbor. Do unto others. Love your enemies. Judge not. Given that these are all Christian values (Christ said them afterall), I can't imagine that we are all that Christian of a nation either. None of these exactly fits in well with our beliefs as Americans. No violence. No capital punishment. Care for those around you even when they are poor or a different race or a different religion. Don't force your values system on someone if you wouldn't want a values system forced on you. Be kind to even those that hate you. Place no value judgement on anyone. So, I guess you're right. We aren't a very Christian nation, are we?
Isn't it about training and upbringing? In that regard we are striving to have our kids held to exactly the same standard that we were held to while growing up-- saying the Pledge in a respectful manner. I won't quibble with you on all the imperfections that we embody both as individuals and as a nation. Those are certain. I will argue that those don't automatically make us non-Christian as you seem to want to assert. That is untrue; perfection is hard to come by. Near-perfection just about as hard! You and I look at Christianity completely different. You had it force-fed to you. I never did. I came to it tentatively and voluntarily as an adult. Hell, I'm still pretty tentative about it most of the time. Through my skepticism, I appreciate the message it passes to us. I don't think it is necessarly as simplistic as you characterize it.
It was meant to be quite sarcastic. 1) How many high school students get spanked? This is the first time in my life that i've ever heard about a high school student getting spanked ... much less this being legal? 2) How many high school's even say the pledge? This is one of those "3 of these stories really happened, which one did we make up" in Maxim. You can't believe this really happened. I really doubt the guy was tramatized. Even my mom gave up spanking me once I turned a teen because it was quite uesless....and she loved using the belt. Illegal things happen everyday ... I wouldn't call this "Nazi Germany". It has to do more with power going to peoples head. "Seperation of Church and State" means they don't control eachother, not that they can't be mentioned together. I don't believe you should be forced to recite anything, as per the freedom of speech.
I understand that, but isn't one of the greatest American values standing up for what you believe in even if it goes contrary to the mainstream? Protest is as much a part of the American landscape as compliance, maybe moreso. We were founded on a Revolution based on protest against unfair taxation. Also, shouldn't that respect extend to respect for the beliefs of others? I agree that we should respect our country. I do too. I'm just saying that our country is founded on the ideals that even the "wretched refuse" can find a home here. I just think we are more about inclusion as a nation than exclusion. I don't think it makes us non-Christian. I think it gives us the choice to choose religion as we see fit, not place a set of values on us that are chosen by one spectific spiritual practice. Frankly, the vast majority of religions have the same primary values system as Christianity. However, the application of social values and ethics does not require the selection of one religion as intrinsically superior to another. In fact, a good social values system allows for all viewpoints to be heard and respected no matter what the religion or lack thereof. It is the even-handed and equal application of values to all people, regardless of race, religion, gender, etc that has allowed us to flourish as a nation. We give everyone an opportunity. I do not consider Christianity simplistic. Quite the contrary. However, I do believe that it is often applied in a rather simplistic manner. Often, only the parts that suit the person applying the concepts are revealed as opposed to the whole picture - the story, the history, the spirituality, everything. By the way, I never considered Christianity to be force fed to me. My mother and my father are both liberal educators. My mom left the church when they told her she was not allowed to teach adult males even though she had a masters degree in education. So, I'm not exactly from the fundamentalist school of Christianity. This is the wrong thread for the debate of the application of Christianity, though. Maybe another time.
Jeff I understand but they ARE KIDS? I THINK the problem with kids today is that we are giving them ALL the rights of an adult when they have none of the adult understanding, maturity or sense of responsibility. I beleive in corporal punishment. However, as a child understanding increases the corporal punishment decreases. The SLAPPING a child thing. . . that is NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH CORPORAL PUNISHMENT. [just like the children slapping their parents and cursing them out in the stores is not to be confused with the lack of corporal punishment. ] we can all jump to the extremes. I think we have given kids sooo many liberties [See divorcing their parents, etc] that they have more power than adults and USE IT TOO. Parent are soo afraid to be parents that the kids run over them. Rocket River
That was me, but I wasn't questioning the validity of your claim, I just said that they should have sued, like this guy.
