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I Don't Always Agree with Israel, but I Understand

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Rashmon, Jan 27, 2015.

  1. AroundTheWorld

    Supporting Member

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    sugrindkid, thank you for your take, which is informed by personal experience. The truth is, if you look around - it's not like it's any better in Egypt than in Palestine, except where they disregard their religious ideology to make money off of tourism. Palestine does not only have the living conditions they have because they are (supposedly) oppressed - what really oppresses them is their crazy ideology of Islam - as they interpret it - as their death cult. Every child gets born into the "us vs. them" mentality. If they had a culture like most East Asian countries where achievement is not to kill as many as possible "infidels", but to become really smart and provide for your family, then they would be so, so much better off right now already - oppression or not. What is really holding them back is Islam- which is telling them to become "martyrs" by killing Jews and other non-Muslims - not Israel. Their culture doesn't emphasize education nearly enough. The more education you have, the more you question some of the ridiculous tenets of Islam (death penalty for apostasy, blasphemy, oppression of women, etc. etc. etc.) - and they do not want that. Egypt, and almost all of the surrounding countries which are predominantly Muslim (if they are not drowning in oil and gas wealth) are living proof of it.
     
    #21 AroundTheWorld, Jan 28, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2015
    1 person likes this.
  2. downbytheriver

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    Wow. Did I just read this? Incredibly small minded way of thinking. Does this mean every Rwandan has a right to attack whoever reminds them of someone who hurt their family members in the past? Every black American doesn't have to work because of what happened 50 years ago? History is just that and there have been huge tragedies all over the world. You buying into the paranoia to justify unspeakable atrocities speaks volumes of who you are as a person. An eye for an eye lost 75 years ago... makes the whole world blind.

    That being said, they are certainly the lesser of two evils. Islam has mutated into something vile beyond comprehension, and it's brainwashed followers hold themselves accountable for absolutely nothing. But that doesn't mean the civilized world has a right to sink to their level.... humanity will not progress.
     
  3. downbytheriver

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    The mentality of this person saddens me.

    "It's not McHale, it's the players."

    "It's not islams fault, it's the worlds."

    He just doesn't have the sophistication to get it, and a billion other people are too enraged in hate and spite to see straight. This problem will never end unless the West gets very aggressive and there aren't enough resources for that to be profitable anymore. Isolating the ME is the future and only way to control acts of extremism.
     
  4. Rashmon

    Rashmon Contributing Member

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    You have completely misunderstood the point. You're close, so I'll let you figure it out.
     
  5. dback816

    dback816 Member

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    You seriously made no point.

    This isn't an art museum. Don't glue three skittles on a lamp post and expect us all to break down in tearful appreciation.
     
  6. ChrisBosh

    ChrisBosh Member

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    Israel ranks in the top 5 in military powers on this planet. They have the support of the greatest hegemonies of our history, along with many great Western powers. They need to get past the idea of getting all the land that God promised them. Agree to a two state solution and end this. "I Don't Always Agree with Israel, but I Understand", this makes little sense, the ball is in Israel's court and they are fumbling it on purpose because of various political and religious reasons.
     
  7. Nivos

    Nivos Member

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    I understand where you're coming from. You should never forget. But along with remembering you have to be able to forgive and move forward.
    I'm surprised there isn't an official memorial day for the slavery of what the black people of america have endured. Not Martin Luther king day that symbolize the ongoing fight for civil rights but an actual day to remember the pain and suffering your people have gone through. Its important to remember, its important to help each other and not expect other to give you a hand to lift you up but get up yourself, succeed on your own. Thrive for better education, better future for your children. Remembering is helping you to do so, it give you strength, but also forgiveness.
    The past had its wrongs for almost every religion, minority and ethnicity in the world. I think the Jews and the Blacks have had it the worst, but in order to survive, you have to embrace your past, take your lessons from it, and grow.
    Israel this year reached a symbolic number of 6 millions Jewish citizens, same number of Jews that was wiped out during the 5 years of the Holocaust.
    Each and every one of us that is growing a successful family, that is doing even a little bit to make this world a better place is the biggest win over the Nazis, and over so many people around us that want to exterminate us from the face of the earth.
    We are strong, we will not give up, we will not forget. We have that obligation for each and every soul of the 6 million that went to the gas chambers, because they did not have a country to defend them.
     
  8. glynch

    glynch Contributing Member

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    I suppose that depends on what you mean by black and white.

    Except for a small number of local Jews the Palestinians were living there first before the Euro Jews, the Russians and all the others came as colonizers. It should be noted that the local Jews lived at peace with the Arabs/ Palestinians and Christians, but it was before "Israel".

    Do Jews have the right to live there at this point? I would say yes.

    Do they have the right to lives there as a "Jewish" state which privileges only them? No. I don't see how can one be an American post Jim Crowe and still support that type of state.

    Do they have the right to dispel Palestinians and pen them into little undesirable areas like Gaza, or little Bantustans aimed at ethnic cleansing absolutely not?
     
  9. glynch

    glynch Contributing Member

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  10. glynch

    glynch Contributing Member

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  11. Nivos

    Nivos Member

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  12. Rocketman1981

    Rocketman1981 Member

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    The German killing machine was truly a horror story.

    I'm just wondering if the Western world felt so guilty about these events why didn't they give the Jews a homeland in Germany? Or Give them Montana?

    It seems easy to say some other country that wasn't the psychos that caused these killings or the nations that stood by idly while they occured should be the where the new Jewish Homeland is.

    I think it would have been better for the Jewish People as well. If we felt so bad for them why put them in the middle of a hornets nest by displacing millions of people?

    A little Chunk of Germany would have been ideal as their homeland. They could be a vibrant economy in a stable geo-political environment.

    Very "Western" imperialist to say we messed up....here we will give you someone else land and kick their people out. Oh...sorry about having to be constantly at war for 100 years.
     
  13. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member

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    A Jewish homeland wasn't created in Montana or Germany because Zionism long predates the Holocaust. When World War II ended it already was a very active movement. The Zionists wouldn't have accepted another homeland and had been fighting the British and Arabs since WWI in that area.

    To a lesser degree it also helped the British to get rid of the headache of administering the Palestine territory.
     
  14. Remii

    Remii Member

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    Agreed... At least not until one side completely destroys and or completely beats the other side into submission and force their ideology and culture onto the side they defeated.
     
  15. Nook

    Nook Member

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    I would only add a caveat that the situation in South East Asia is not all that great. There are many Muslims in Indonesia and Malaysia and the is a lot of violence.... also Thailand which has a small, but very radical Muslim minority.
     
  16. Nook

    Nook Member

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    Well there is more to it than that.

    There were a lot of Europeans that didn't especially want the Jews in Europe, and there were a lot of Americans that didn't want them in the USA.

    Ultimately there were a lot of reasons that the Jews are where they are. Ultimately the political power/interests of USA, GB and Zionists trumped those of Palestine.
     
  17. glynch

    glynch Contributing Member

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    Well that resentment could have led to another war in Germany. Punishing Germany had not led to a good result after WW I. and as said by Judoka, you already had Zionist colononialists moving to Palestine who occupied about 7 % of the land and were close to 1/3 of the population.

    There is no doubt that western guilt did play a role in the creation of Israel.

    When the Zionists began ethnically cleansing Palestine of about 750,,000 Palestinians and then raised their villages and destroyed often times what they left behind (some of the nicer homes in more desirable areas were given to the Jewish population who live in them till today) there were many journalists Red Cross workers and UN personnel who observed the process which took over months. Western guilt did play a role in covering this up to the extent that they did not publicize the cleansing when it was happening.

    After all this stunning act of ethnic cleansing was just three years after the event the OP commemorates so it was a very sensitive matter to criticize some of the same folks who were victims of the Holocaust.



    Interestingly the large scale ethnic cleansing started several months before and was about half finished before the "Six Arab Armies attaccked Israel" as Nivos was undoubtedly taught in school.

    <iframe width="640" height="390" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/wV9gv7w3pLY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
     
    #37 glynch, Jan 29, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2015
  18. Nivos

    Nivos Member

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    Glynch, Ilan pappe is an exremist, with sceachy sources, like yourself. He's on the fringe of radical left wing historions, with the same line as Holocoast denials historions (which we'll see more and more of them once the last survivals die and won't be here to speak their truth).

    But, even if what he's saying is true, it doesn't contradict what I'm saying. Every person that got thrown out of their homes in those years of population shifting (including the Jews that got thrown away from their houses in the arab countries), should be compensated, and move on with their lives.

    Your hate towards Israel and blindness toward the Jihadist Islamic aspirations (although Im sure you're not blind, you encourage it), is more dangerous to the world than the most extreme right wing idiots in Israel.
     
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  19. glynch

    glynch Contributing Member

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    Well you don't have much except hysterical name calling: "Pappe an extremist"; "(Pappe) like a Holocaust denier" -- dishonest to say the least--seachy sources" whatever that is-- sreachy?; "Holocaust deniers";
    "hate toward Israel"; blindness toward Jihadist aspirations" "I "encourage Jihadist aspirations"



    Your only substantive point is that 750,000 folks who were driven from their homes and in many cases had them and their whole villages or neighborhood villages razed in a brutal ethnic cleansing should be compensated, and move on with their lives.

    Well maybe folks especially folks like you who were not in the Holocaust should learn to move on and live with the Palestinians in equality in a modern Western democratic fashion respectful of the civil rights for all.
     
  20. Nivos

    Nivos Member

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    Your hate for the Jews is masked by your hate for Zionism, you are so transparent its just embarrassing.
    This is the older version of your methods, you're not making anything new here:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion

    I never heard anything from you against the persecution of Palestinians in Jordan, The persecution of Christians and Druze in Lebanon, all you're preaching is hate towards the "evil Zionist". Nothing new, like I said.

    Any loyal citizen to Israel is treated with complete equal right, doesn't matter if he's Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Druze, Cherkesi, Sumarian, Atheist or Pastafarian. None of that you can say to any of our neighbors, but you still keep on picking on the Jews. How convenience.
     

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