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I Don't Always Agree with Israel, but I Understand

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Rashmon, Jan 27, 2015.

  1. Rashmon

    Rashmon Contributing Member

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    Didn't see any mention of this somber anniversary...

    I seldom enter into the Israeli bashing threads because I'm usually torn. I don't always agree with what the Israelis are doing these days, but I understand.

    When, because of hatred, you have been nearly wiped off the face of the earth in recent history and there are still those who wish to exterminate you from the face of the earth, you might be inclined to overreact.

    Auschwitz: a short history of the largest mass murder site in human history

    Keep it respectful.
     
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  2. Rashmon

    Rashmon Contributing Member

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    About 100 Holocaust survivors from around the world, including Canada, are returning to Poland this week to commemorate the 70th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz-Birkenau concentration camp. Here are some facts:

    Sent to Auschwitz-Birkenau:
    • 1.1 million Jews
    • 140,000–150,000 non-Jewish Poles
    • 23,000 Roma and Sinti (Gypsies)
    • 15,000 Soviet prisoners of war
    • 25,000 others

    Killed at Auschwitz-Birkenau:
    • 960,000 Jews
    • 74,000 Poles,
    • 21,000 Roma (Gypsies)
    • 15,000 Soviet prisoners of war
    • 10,000–15,000 members of other nationalities (Soviet civilians, Czechs, Yugoslavs, French, Germans, and Austrians).

    See more at: http://www.timescolonist.com/opinio...entration-camp-1.1741843#sthash.GOfnaN2E.dpuf
     
  3. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member

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    Yes truly a horrific anniversary and while we throw around terms like "holocaust" to refer to many other things there's not much that can be compared to the systematic and industrialized system of death that the Nazis had installed.

    As per to Israel while International guilt over the Holocaust helped to create Israel I don't think modern Israeli policies are due to the Holocaust but I think more to having fought multiple wars, dealing with terrorism and Jewish extremists. Also keep in mind that survivors of the Holocaust aren't monolithic in their views on Israeli policies and many oppose the Israel's policies in regard to the Palestinians.
    http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.612072
     
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  4. AroundTheWorld

    Supporting Member

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    Thank you for this thread Rashmon.
     
  5. Rocket River

    Rocket River Member

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    Sad Anniversary
    Always heard 6 million

    Rocket River
     
  6. AroundTheWorld

    Supporting Member

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    This is "just" Auschwitz. There were more concentration camps and ghettos.
     
  7. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
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    What a horrible tragedy. One of the most life-changing events that ever happened to me was when I got hear a camp survivor speak, and talk with him afterwards.

    It was really wise insight that he had about it all. It really changed or maybe a better word is modified my perspective on it and a number of issues.

    One of the only songs that can get me to tear up is Kinky Friedman's "Ride 'em Jew Boy" which is a tribute the sacrifice paid during the holocaust. Willie Nelson does a great version of it as well.

    <iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/yUtTY01qF6Y" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
     
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  8. glynch

    glynch Contributing Member

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    I understand the horrible crime against humanity.

    However, I but don't understand how the Holocaust survivors and their supporters support the current crime against humanity they inflict on the Palestinians.

    The best I can do is analogize to how children who are abused grow up to be abusers. or violence begets violence.
     
  9. Rashmon

    Rashmon Contributing Member

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    I'm sure there are survivors and many Israelis who do not support the current Israeli policies and your concluding analogy is my point: as long as there are people/organizations/countries/etc. who seek or support the extermination of Israel we will not see much progress.

    I don't support their current policies, but I understand why they might be reluctant to open themselves up to a repeat of history. Israel has a legitimate reason to be paranoid and the precipitating reason is within the lifetime of our parents or grandparents, not the crusades.

    Side note: I'm assuming your equating the current Palestinian situation with the Holocaust was unintended. I'm sure we could agree that on the scale of "crimes against humanity" these are not in same ballpark.
     
  10. Dubious

    Dubious Contributing Member

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    One is historical, there is no changing what happened.
    One is on-going and doesn't have to continue to be an injustice.
     
  11. Nivos

    Nivos Member

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    Thank you for posting.
    I'm trying to cut my posts here because it seems like no one really wants to hear the other side just to keep on hating.
    But this day is important for me because it reminds me of the importance of my country and that our battle to survive is not over.
    There are 2 important lessons for this day in my opinion:
    1) Forgive but don't forget. The Nazi agenda was to exterminate all the jews sistematically. It didn't matter for them if you were a secular, religous or atheist. As long as you were a Jew, you have one fate- turn into ashes.
    The holocoast was the last straw for the Jews to understand that if they won't defend themselves, no one will. That is why I really get offended when people like Glynch are comparing the Israel-Palestine fight over land to the sistematic extermination policy of the Nazis.
    On the other hand, I have no resentments to the German people. What's done is done and there's no reason to keep feeding the hate over generations. We have to learn how to forgive and move on forward with the wrongs done in the past.

    2) The Jihadistic agenda is the closest to the Nazi agenda since ww2. Their fight is not territorial, its imperialistic and idealistic. And their Ideal is to exterminate all non believers. They are'nt as sophisticated yet but they are gaining power and followers thanks to the weakness of the west.
    The lesson from ww2 is that the longer you avoid dealing with crazy aspirations, the more painful its going to be when it'll come to you.

    My warnnings are not coming from hate, they come from painful experience, and I urge you to take that day and think about the past, and the future.
     
  12. Rocket River

    Rocket River Member

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    I respect the Jewish People.
    I do question the Isreali/Palestinian conflict - More from Lack of understanding

    I think Black people in America could stand to take on a similar Stance as the Jewish people.
    Never Forget
    Defend ourselves because no one else will
    These are concepts that need to become deeply rooted in the American Black Populace

    Rocket River
     
  13. glynch

    glynch Contributing Member

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    Well one day soon we will see both Holocaust Rembrance Day and the Nabka and Chrismas celebrated in a multiethnic / religious state without one group privileged over the others, be they Muslim, Jewish or Christian or other.
     
  14. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member

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    I agree that Israel has a right to exists and I think everyone here agrees that Jews should never be systematically exterminated again. That said though we are talking about current policies of Israel. How does policies like continuing to build settlements and restrict the ability of the Palestinians to develop a viable state and economy prevent another Holocaust from happening?

    A counter argument is that by increasing resentment among Palestinians and others in the region makes Israel less safe.
     
  15. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member

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    And just to add yes what is happening to the Palestinians now isn't comparable to the Holocaust. Last I checked the Israelis weren't building crematoria.

    That doesn't mean that justifies Israel's policies but I think we can disagree with those policies without making such overblown comparisons.
     
  16. Mathloom

    Mathloom Contributing Member

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    Agree 100% and I wish the Middle East would be more understanding of this. Though much of the Israeli population have never experienced it, they are definitely injected with that fear often enough to feel easily threatened into taking hardline positions IMO.
     
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  17. glynch

    glynch Contributing Member

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    The fear is understandable and their leaders do everything they possibly can to keep fanning the fear so they can continue to displace the Paelstians and grab more land essentially making the two state solution impossible.

    Just look at how Dubya and Cheney used 911 to invade Iraq and kill hundreds of thousands over there to see how much fear can be whipped up.

    Jewish continuing fear and even the Holocaust does not give them the right to go and displace the Palestinians from their land.
     
  18. bigtexxx

    bigtexxx Contributing Member

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    but it is really the Palestinians' land? There is not a black and white answer.
     
  19. Dubious

    Dubious Contributing Member

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    1. Israel could stop expanding settlements
     
  20. sugrlndkid

    sugrlndkid Member

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    Im actually extremely torn on this subject. During a visit approx a year ago to the Holy land for a church pilgrimage, had a chance to travel through Jordan, Israel, and Egypt by bus. We landed in Amman Jordan. They had some of the nicest people there (but their check points were annoying and took so long). Then we crossed into Israel at a border crossing. It was some of the craziest things I have ever done. There were armed guards(young males and young females armed with assault rifles) at the borders, bomb sniffing dogs...checking our bus to make sure our vehicle wasn't booby trapped...etc. Then when driving through the eastern side of Israel, the way Israeli's live is just like you or I would. Markets are everywhere, people walk around at all times, modern cars and people traverse the cities, etc.

    Any time we crossed into a Palestinian territory, we encountered these check points. Then like something out of a movie, the landscape/scenery changes. The roads look desolate, the level of poverty is stark, lack of vegetation and agriculture, lack of adequate water supply (majority of the water supply into Palestinian territories is controlled by the Israeli government)...these are things a majority of American people don't hear about. These folks are piss poor, and its easy to understand how their animosity builds against Israel and her people.

    But this is why I'm extremely torn in regards to this subject. Israel is surrounded by nations that look to exterminate her off the face of the earth. It is why they have to militarize every one of their young children.

    What we see in today's Palestine is a build up of hate from the moment you are born against everyone that has oppressed them, especially the Israeli's. Kids aren't able to sit in schools without worrying about missiles blowing up a village, parents have to bury their children/grandchildren before themselves, and corrupt and perverse Islam has now become a rallying call to young impressionable minds.

    Throughout all of this, what we continue to see is that there are innocent people on both sides that just want a semblance/hope of a normal life. They just want to be able to do what you or I do on a daily basis. I just dont see it happening in this war torn region...ever.
     

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