I am increasingly concerned about Israel

I have been a STRONG proponent of an independent palest. state and investigations into the settlement expansions but it is truly wrong to hate "Israel."


It is amazing how it is the same accross the board. The palestenian people want peace, but groups like Hamaas, which have killed their own people change all that. On top of that you have the Israeli military, who is only exceeded by its brutality, by its stupidity. You have two groups of people that want to live peacefully but are being dictated by the powers in charge. It is easy to say that the palest. people should rid hamaas of themselves, but when the Israeli military is shelling houses and little kids are dying, it makes it all the more difficult.

These two groups of People are ethnically pretty much exactly the same, proved by DNA analysis. It is sad that they must have a rift between them like this.

As of now however, I can see why Ari is afraid of the Israeli gov.

 

I can't remember how good Ariel was, but he was certainly better than this.

 

I am increasingly concerned about sympathizers of Islamic extremism/hate of Israel being more and more vocal on this board, while the silent majority just gets tired of even arguing with their crap.

 

The irony here is that there is a Hitler quote which is almost identical to yours, but obviously not about Islam/Muslims or Israel. Think about that for a second.

Anyhow, the situation is bad on both sides. Palestine, as small as it is, is so divided. The people (as Ari correctly said) are being divided against themselves. Hamaas and Fatah taking prisoners from each other, accusing each other, etc etc..

I've come to the realization that probably many before me came to.... None of them (at the top) want to fix anything. That leads me to another conclusion: there are people in both states and outside both states who benefit from this conflict. Now, I already knew that, but had enormously underestimated their influence on the whole thing.

I'm not sure it's in the interest of Hamas or Fatah to progress in peace talks. I'm not sure it's in the interest of Israel to ever say "okay, we have everything under control, all risks are mitigated as much as possible". So all sides are throwing obstacles in the way.

I'm not sure the problem lies with different parties within the same country. I'm afraid the best party in each government can't even achieve what's needed here.

I wish there was a way to leave all the wingnuts from both sides in there, and transport the rest of the population somewhere else. Then I would be happy to see them feed on each other. Animals.

 

What I'd like to know is if the US govt is really interested in the creation of a Palestinian state. I'm asking this out of genuine ignorance and not to slander the US. I know the US has done a lot to facilitate talks etc., but it seems to me that if the US got serious about the issue, and made a real threat to cut off aid to Israel, there'd be a Palestinian state by now. Is Israel even in a position to bargain with the US? Am I oversimplifying things?

 

I believe some form of a "Palestinian" state has been offered a few times, only to be thrown out. Part of that is stubbornness and the other part of it is that the settlers aren't being compelled to move.

Can the U.S. push Israel? Sure, I guess. Is Israel in a position to bargain? Absolutely. They hold a very strategic position with regards to oil, the money from which is allegedly going towards building or buying nukes (see Iraq, Iran, and, if you are gullible enough, Al Qaeda, Taliban and Hezbollah).

I guess the most important thing to look at is oil production. At present, 9 of the top 10 producers in the world (U.S. being ranked 2nd) produce over 42bbl/day. That's around 54% of the world's oil production. Those coutnries are

Russia ~ 9.98 bbl/day
Saudi Arabia ~ 9.2 bbl/day
U.S. ~ 8.45 bbl/day
Iran ~ 4.03 bbl/day
China ~ 3.73 bbl/day
Mexico ~ 3.5 bbl/day
Canada ~ 3.42 bbl/day
United Arab Emirates ~ 2.94 bbl/day
Venezuela ~ 2.66 bbl/day
Kuwait ~ 2.62 bbl/day

That's all fine and dandy except that the U.S. consumes over 20 bb/day (25% +). This means that it needs to secure/import oil. The countries which produce the most oil are traditionally not friends of the U.S., but more importantly, the situation is getting worse because the countries with the largest proven reserves (most potential) are even more Middle-East-ish:

Add Iraq, Libya and Nigeria from the previous list. Remove Mexico, United States, and China.

Next most important is that the U.S. number one ally (for better or worse) is Europe, and Europe is consuming almost as much (15 bbl/day or almost 20% of world), while producing a notch less than Abu Dhabi (a city).

So you see, even if all this was a coincidence, it is highly amusing to think about... Because if the top tier political and financial figures involved with Israeli-US politics decide to grow relationships with other (competing) major stakeholders in the oil industry, it creates a problem for the US.

This situation ofcourse assumes that 9/11 never happened. In reality, 9/11 happened and the US decided not to sit back. In the process, some awesome oil contracts were secured in Iraq (highest potential growth in oil production), Iran stockpiled sanctions, Saudi Arabia continues to do the opposite of OPEC production-wise, and all oil-rich monarchies are still in place (UAE, Saudi, Kuwait), and oil price has halved in one year.

This is what I've been told. I don't see this as being reason enough for the super-strong ties, but I've found that not everyone is willing to discuss it any deeper and I don't want to hear the religious or conspiracy theories. Good luck finding more info!

I've kind of thrown all that together and no doubt will have made mistakes in some places and will probably have left out equally important factors. I'm sure other will pitch in and fill in the blanks. But that's my view of the Israel-U.S. connection.

 

Equating complacency towards Muslim extremists to Hilter's positions seems like a crutch for you to deflect attention away from the bad apples under the Muslim umbrella. Many think a lot more could be done by some of the folks in these extremist mosques to "police their own".

 

imo nothing has changed with israel or with the world's perception of israel. what has changed is the world acknowledging the united states is now bankrupt and holds a monopoly money currency.

china and india voted in favor of the goldstone report not because they now have some newfound disrespect for israel, but because they no longer fear america

 

You must have misunderstood. I don't advocate any of the above (Hitler or AroundTheWorld statements). I am against quashing opinions.

Also, I would never accept responsibility for "policing my own" because "my own" is a stereotypical, generalizing and sometimes racist term. MY own does not need to be policed. What you refer to as "extremist" Muslims is NOT my own.

Also, if the mosque is "extremist" (using your definition/term "extremist"), then it is not following the rules of Islam, hence your whole theory falls apart. I'm not sure who should police it, but I'm sure me and you both agree that since it is not officially a state or have any real infrastructure or independence, it can't really police itself (rebels have more money/power than "government").

I highlight the use of the word extremist because my definition for that word is "someone who maximizes application of Islamic jurisprudence positively" while yours is "someone who maximizes application of Islamic jurisprudence negatively or unethically." I'm just stating that upfront because it tends to create confusion. I try to stay away from the word altogether in order to avoid confusion.

If someone's a terrorist, I call them a terrorist. If ignorant, I call them that. If morally bankrupt, I call them that. If incompetent, I call them that. If taking Islamic Law and applying every tiny bit of it to life properly, I call them religious. All these things are unique, and I find it unfair that an extremely good person and an extremely bad person have to share one word that has been branded into your vocabulary by the media.

Back to your original point... it's not a crutch. I am just saying that AroundTheWorld said something similar to Hitler. Am I saying he's racist? No. I'm just saying we should flag that kind of mentality. There are a bunch of people who are suffering in Palestine as we speak and they comprise a majority of the people there. That is fact. Settlers are expanding beyond the borders that they are allowed, that is fact. For some reason, stopping them from doing so is very difficult and causing problems for all sides. That is fact. What that reason is - is what we're discussing now and can not be agreed by a majority. Feel free to put it to the test by posting a poll.

Now... should I understand that you agree with AroundTheWorld that support on the BBS for Palestinian civilians is a significant concern and that much of the board remains quiet about it because the opinion is not even worthy of discussion?

In whichever capacity you agree with him, what solution do you propose for the "concern"?

 

Bottom line is that Hasan attended a mosque in the US - the people in that mosque need to keep an eye out for this type of behavior/thoughts and "police their own" by alerting the authorities, as opposed to keeping quiet and ending up with another massacre in the name of "Allahu Akbar". I'm not saying your mosque is where these types attend, but Hasan attended mosque here in the US, and it would be helpful if the other attendees would speak up to help "police their own".

 

Mathloom: Thanks for your lengthy if somewhat indirect reply I think I get what you are implying.

This is the key. I don't doubt having Israel as an ally in the region has its strategic usefulness, but even then, Israel is way more dependent on the US than it is the other way around. If Israel and the US cut ties, the US might face higher oil prices? Even that is speculative. On the other hand, Israel's ability to even survive would be under threat. Seems to me that the US can easily afford to force their arm on the Palestine issue, and Israel would still have to maintain the type of relationship they have with the US because they have no choice. Still unconvinced the US is really interested in facilitating a Palestinian state .

 

To me, this is just more of the same.

Bibi absolutely does not want peace. He says what he can to appease his allies and centrist voters (talking peace), while giving his base what they want (settlement expansion, war, discrimination).

Bibi often talks in code to his base. It reminds me of Jim Crow era southern Democrats. Inside the average Israeli is a lot of paranoia and xenophobia, and it benefits Likud to make sure they are constantly stirred up.

It's not just about Palestinians, it's the way they deal with foreigners (especially non-Jewish ones), the role of religion in government, and a lot of other things that look out of place in a supposedly secular and western oriented democracy.

When someone actually dares to be critical, Netanyahu gives long-winded speeches where he likens himself to Churchill and makes dramatic WW2 comparisons.

Here's the deal...as soon as anyone talks peace, poll numbers go down. As long as people are afraid and a leader talks "security" his job is safe.

 

Talk about oversimplifying things. I am sure the idiots from Columbine attended a church somewhere as well. Maybe they should have been reported by the church members?

 

that would have been helpful

I'm hearing a lot of complaining from Muslims (in many cases, quite angrily) that they shouldn't be lumped in with this guy (which is fair), but it sure seems like somebody from that mosque could have spoken up and helped prevent this.

 

It seems like it was known that he had problems.

 

where was the breakdown?

 

That's assuming that people at the mosque knew what was going on in his head. (Maybe there is a report on this that I have not read) Otherwise your logic is flawed because people go to a mosque all the time without even speaking a word to anyone. Do you know how many people just go and offer their prayers and head out?? It happens all the time

 

Well since the government knew he was unstable and had some radical views, perhaps it was in how they got the information out, and how close of tabs people were keeping on him.

 

COuld someone from the mosque have spoken up? Sure. But the FBI knew of his contacts with Al-Qaeda and he expressed radical views during medical school and the time he was at Fort Hood. It is being said that many fellow soldiers noticed his behavior but didn't report it. All in all, someone should have taken this seriously and spoken up.