After Shane Battier's monster offensive performance last night, which included 3 points and the painful sight of watching him try and lead a fastbreak, I decided I would see where Battier ranks in terms of ppg among regular NBA starting players. The criteria I used in order to determine what constitutes a regular starter was somebody that has started at least 60% of his team's games and plays over 15 mpg. Battier's numbers were the cutoff point for the data. So I examined the stats of every NBA team and provided the links below. The links provide stats on individual players and clearly show each player's ppg, mpg, and games started. The evidence will be discussed at the end of this post. Boston: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/stats?team=bos New Jersey: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/stats?team=njn New York: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/stats?team=nyk Philadelphia: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/stats?team=phi Toronto: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/stats?team=tor Chicago: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/stats?team=chi Cleveland: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/stats?team=cle Detroit: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/stats?team=det Atlanta: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/stats?team=atl Charlotte: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/stats?team=cha Miami: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/stats?team=mia Orlando: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/stats?team=orl Washington: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/stats?team=was Golden State: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/stats?team=gsw LA Clippers: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/stats?team=lac LA Lakers: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/stats?team=lal Phoenix: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/stats?team=pho Sacramento: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/stats?team=sac Dallas: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/stats?team=dal Houston: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/stats?team=hou Memphis: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/stats?team=mem New Orleans: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/stats?team=nor San Antonio: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/stats?team=sas Denver: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/stats?team=den Minnesota: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/stats?team=min Oklahoma City: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/stats?team=okc Portland: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/stats?team=por Utah: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/stats?team=uth Top 7 lowest scoring starters in the NBA: 1.) PF - Ben Wallace 3 ppg @ 24 mpg (Games Started: 54) 2.) Rookie SF - Nicolas Batum 5 ppg @ 17.8 mpg (Games Started: 57) 3.) C - Erik Dampier 5.4 ppg @ 22.8 mpg (Games started: 61) 4.) SG - Dahntay Jones 5.8 ppg @ 19.1 mpg (Games Started: 51) 5.) Rookie PF - Darrell Arthur 6 ppg @ 19.6 mpg (Games Started: 41) 6.) C - Samuel Dalembert 6.3 ppg @ 24.7 mpg (Games Started: 58) 7.) SF - Shane Battier 6.5 ppg @ 33.2 mpg (Games Started: 38) Shane Battier is the 7th lowest scoring player in the league who regularly starts and plays for an NBA team. Battier plays the most mins out of any of those players (8.5 mins more than the next closest player). These numbers combined with his low fg%, lack of offensive rebounding, and low assist totals demonstrate that he is a liability on the offensive end. In my view, His "intangibles" don't makeup for the lack of tangible production. I'm sure people will make excuses for him, but he needs to show up in the box score for this team to be successful in the playoffs instead of just hanging out in the corner on the offensive end. The short term alternative is to reduce his mins (maybe even bring him off the bench) and the long term path would be to trade him. 6.5 ppg @ 33.2 mpg from a starting SF just isn't going to get it done in the post-season.
Stats don't tell nothing, believe me. I don't even look at that... Shane plays in the NBA because of one reason - defense. Nothing else, he's very one sided offensive player and I'm fine with that, he has never been a slasher just a spot up shooter. But his defense is what makes him such a good player.
Yep, he needs to get his mojo(tan) back. Confidence is a major factor in sports, and Shane probably thought he was a s sexy beast when he had that tan I have a better idea...he should get it right before the playoffs, we'll spring it on our opponents!
Does your analysis include how much more productive his teammates are when he's on the floor? Or how about how unproductive his man becomes when he's guarding him? This isn't fantasy league, the only stat worth caring about is the teams' scores when the game ends.
I am confused. What is going on with Shane? Remember, just after Tracy went down Battier had a GREAT stretch when he not only was making shots, but he was agressive. But past few games he has been just USELESS. I do understand he is not a 'boxscore' type of guy, but come one. He hasn't been hitting his 3s and I am just tired of his 1/6 nights. Has his foot gotten worse? Because it looks like it has. I don't expect Battier to show up in the boxscore, but just take what the defense gives you. If he can't make open 3s in this offense, than he is useless on offense. Pretty similar to Hayes. Hopefully he will get better, though.
Do you think that 6.5 ppg @ 33.2 mpg from a starting SF is going to get it done in the post-season? What if somebody else has a bad game? Where are the other points going to come from? The guy hanging out in the corner? I think it's pretty clear what the original analysis includes. Since the only think that matters is the final score, lets look at the record of playoff teams that have featured Battier: 5 wins and 20 losses and 5 first round exits. The same question I posed to Red_1, I'm posing to you as well.
his defense contribution can't be deny or underestimate. but i do worry about his offense. where is the tan?
sorry if I'm a bit hard in saying these, but... This is EXACTLY what gives stat analysis a bad name. Among your assertions, you have proven that statistically, battier's individual offensive production is below average; you have NOT proven "He is an offensive liability on the offensive end"; you have NOT proven "His intangibles don't make up for the lack of offensive production; and you have NOT proven "he needs to show up in the box score for this team to be successful in the playoffs". You used a correct statistical fact to claim three things that has not been proven to be of any causal-effect relation with the fact. It's fine if you say, "IMO, Battier sucks". Every fan has their own opinion and that's why we are fans. -- in fact, these opinion could well be true for a lot of times. However, please DON'T pretend that you arrived your opinion through statistical analysis. You didn't. Or if you think you did, the analysis is fundamentally flawed. There are already enough people questioning whether using statistical analysis to break down the essential part of the game is feasible. Please don't make it worse by bringing faulty methods into it to prove how bad it could be if it is incorrectly used.
It looks like my original post came out harsher than I intended. I'm really sorry for that. The point I was trying to make is that you can't use just boxscore stats as your evidence to conclude that Battier suckz. You didn't even list FG% into your analysis-Larry Hughes right now is scoring 12.2 pts for the New York Knicks. Does that mean he's twice as productive as Battier is? As for your question regarding the scoring load, what Battier lacks in tangible scoring (i.e. putting points directly in the net) he more than makes up for in defense as well as the "intangible" stuff you seem to scoff at. In just this last game, Battier was the one who saved us from Artest's brain fart in the closing seconds and ultimately allowed Ab0 the chance to win the game. That was a probably a four or five point swing in our favor that happened because of him, and it wouldn't be reflected in the boxscore at all.
Bruce Bowen was averaging those numbers ever since he got to San Antonio and he was invaluable. Yes, Battier's lack of offensive production is getting a little annoying at this point, but there are plenty of shots for Yao, Scola, Artest, and Brooks. Battier still spaces the floor for them, so until his man starts sagging off him I don't care how many points he's averaging. What's the solution at this point anyway, bench Shane and start Wafer?
Thanks for posting this. I always get the urge to post something similar when people misuse stats. But it generally takes too much time for the explanation. I personally don't know what to think of Battier. He's very extreme in that he does so much that I as a casual fan cannot comprehend, especially on the defensive end. So I really can't tell how important he is. I do feel that he's WORTHY of being a starter. Especially since he can shoot and at least space the floor. He just needs to be surrounded by players who can create. And fortunately we have that.
I`m really sick of reading bull****-threads like this especially after Battier helped winning this game for us with a superintelligent timeout in the end!!!
I'm well aware of how statistics work. What do you call somebody who mostly stands in the corner on the offensive end and can't dribble a basketball? If he's an asset on offense then I don't want to see what a liability look like. In your rush to try to prove how flawed my methodology was, you missed the part where I said in my view. Thus, I researched and presented data, analyzed it, and posted my conclusions based on it. You're more than welcome to disagree, but you should offer some evidence that calls into question the numbers I brought up. Since you don't like the things I posted, find a dependent and some independent variables we should use in analyzing Battier's contributions to the Rockets and then run a multi-variate regression model and post your results. I did mention that Battier has a low fg%...it's below 40%, the fact that a lot of his shots are wide open makes that figure even worse. You still didn't answer my question. What if other players are not playing well and you have Shane playing over 30 mpg and giving you 6 ppg? How do you compensate offensively for a teammate having an off night? He's proven that he can't step up like a James Posey and score more points in situations when he needs to. This is how he becomes a liability. Shane Battier has never been the defender Bruce Bowen was. Just go look at how Dirk torched him in the playoffs when he was with Memphis. Both Battier and Bowen have declined, but the difference is that Shane still starts and plays over 30 mpg while Bowen has become a 19 mpg bench player. How about reducing his mins? I should also mention James Posey, a guy who's stepped up for 2 different teams in the NBA Finals comes off the bench in NO.
I didn't misuse any stats. See my above response to the post you quoted. Let me restate my conclusion a little differently for you as well: Battier has the 7th lowest scoring avg in the NBA for starters who regularly play for their teams. On top of that, he plays the most mpg out of all those guys too. What would you call a guy that has these numbers combined with a low fg%, lack of offensive rebounding, low assist totals, lack of athleticism, physical declining, inable to dribble a basketball, and has a low bball iq when it comes to offense in general and transition offense in particular? An asset? Also, if Battier is such a hard worker, then why hasn't he improved since he's been in the league? It's obvious that 6.5 ppg @ 33.2 mpg from a starting SF is not going to get it done in the post-season - especially if somebody has an offgame or gets in foul trouble. Here's one more stat that I'm sure I'm "misusing" or "abusing" or whatever: 5 wins and 20 losses and 5 first round exits for teams Shane Battier has been a part of in the playoffs.
I dunno about you guys, but I feel pretty good about Battier playing 33 minutes a game if it means holding Lebron James to 7 of 21 shooting and 0 assist (Artest couldn't have done it by himself). With the current starting lineup, Battier is the fifth option on offense anyway. I don't see the need for him to have big productions. Considering how little shots he takes, if he makes the occasional open 3, that's a bonus. And if he misses, that doesn't make him a liability. Also, I am pretty sure that an NBA team is equipped with staff members and assistant coaches who do statistical analyses and player comparisons as a full-time job. If they feel good about starting and playing Battier, he must be doing something right.
You misused stat because you chose an arbitrary stat which doesn't say anything. That's like saying Battier was a better player back in his rookie days because he put up better tangible stat back then. It's pointless because the stat is so dependent on the makeup and style of the team. There are a lot of problems with Battier. And I also agree that he's played horribly in the playoffs for us in general. But you used half a page worth of stuff to just talk about his PPG, which is where I have trouble with.
