As most of you know in sports, the trend of one player playing his entire career in a city is fading away. Patrick Ewing left New York last year. Gary Payton is probably out of Seattle. David Robinson may be out of San Antonio, and Hakeem has threatened to leave Houston. What makes them leave? Ego. Pride. They think they are worth more money than the team is offering. They think they deserve more touches, and to be more involved. In our current case with Hakeem, we know his strengths, and we know his weaknesses. He can still be a big part of our team. But he's going to miss about 30 games a year, if you're lucky. If he doesn't get enough touches, he may complain and take them away from Francis, Mobley, Mo, and Eddie. He can only give you 25-30 minutes per night. Based on basketball only, should we sacrifice serious recruiting with other free agents for him? The answer, for most, is no. So why are the Rockets doing this? It's that little catalyst called public relations. Most of the fans out there are casual fans, who might become outraged and leave the team if the local sports legend were not resigned. Here's a quote today from Spurs chairman Peter Holt on the Spurs and David Robinson: "All I will say is we want David. This city loves David, and there's no question we would take a hit from the public if we lost him." Should that be the primary concern? Look at the Knicks this year. They won more games this year without Patrick in the lineup, and Camby finally got the chance to step up and show his talent. Meanwhile, in Seattle, Ewing's skills further eroded, and a team that some once thought would contend for the Western Conference crown was several games away from even making the playoffs. The Knicks did the right thing, and they play in New York, the place where media and fans are intense as they can be. So, the question I have is this: where do you draw the line? Where should the Rockets draw the line? Personally, with every passing summer, I grow more concerned that this front office places too much importance on the issue of PR. That trade in '99 would've been an unbelievable move, talent wise. The #5 pick, #12 pick, Doug Christie, and Kevin Willis? That is a huge package. Fast forward to the 2001 spring. The Rockets, after Hakeem had complained for weeks, were near a deal with Vancouver that would've sent Hakeem to there (or Dallas) and Shareef here (at least going by Clutch's thread). What happened? They talked to Hakeem, he had some nice games, and we kept him over the young star Rahim. I'm again guessing PR had a lot to do with the move. And sure, if we traded Hakeem to Toronto, who's to say that we pick up Francis? If we traded for Rahim, we probably don't trade up for Eddie. But we got lucky both those times with the way things ended up with the end. I somehow doubt the Rockets passed on dealing Hakeem to Toronto on the basis of trading for Steve Francis two months later, unless they had a conversation with Miss Cleo. Anyway, does anyone else worry about this organization taking PR too seriously? It's nice to have some of the casual fans in your corner, but should it come at the expense at winning basketball games? I know Dream has not hurt us yet, but if this continues for much longer, we are headed down that road. Remember that the fans will come if you win basketball games. In conclusion, if you are the GM of an NBA team, how much emphasis do you let PR play in your decisions? How far do you go before moving on, and what do you do when the older city icon wants more money and touches than he's worth, and young potential stars are available? How do you go about trying to find the balance between both winning basketball and selling tickets, merchandise, and being profitable on the business side? As a GM or person in the organization, it can be hard to juggle both the priorities of having a successful business and having a winning team. If you were faced with the situation the Rockets, Spurs, etc. are facing right now, what would you do? P.S.-- I know I cited Hakeem for some examples, but my intent is not to start another Hakeem thread to bash him. My intent is just to let everyone play CD or another GM for a little bit, and to see what they would do when given the situation like the one we face right now, the Spurs face right now, and the Knicks last summer. ------------------ Draftsource.net-- the premier source for draft info. Profiles, rankings, mock drafts, and more! The Mo Taylor Fan Site
The Rockets should be willing to upset the fans in the short term in order to win. If the Rockets become a playoff team because we tell Hakeem to take a hike, and sign David Robinson instead, I will bet the fans will forgive the management quickly. ------------------
The Knicks made the right move? I had to stop reading there. hahahahhahahahhahahaha! The Knicks traded a 15 Million dollar cap slot for a 10 or 11 million dollar cap slot that's tied down for several years. They would have been sitting pretty right about now, but instead they'll pay dollar for dollar on 20 M, for Glen Rice and a bunch of trash. They most certainly did not make the right move. And that's not even talking basketball wise. That's not even talking about how the Knicks sucked in the frontcourt this past year. Van Gundy's slow it down (pg/sg backing it in from 55'???) game is the Knicks problem, not Ewing. Ewing, btw, still averaged in the 10/8 area. The Knicks still, averaged in the 85~ ppg area. [This message has been edited by Achebe (edited July 12, 2001).]
Achebe, I meant from a basketball perspective. They let the guy go. My focus was not on the salary cap, becuse if we don't keep Hakeem, we don't suffer any reprocussions in that area. The Knicks did suffer a big hit there, although they'd be over the cap anyway. I have to disagree with you about the basketball issue. They had Ewing's presence out of the way, so Spree and Houston had more room to drive to the hole. They gave Camby a chance to start at center, and he had a breakout year, much better than Ewing's recent years. They added another good perimeter scorer in Rice, and when he was healthy, he was a huge addition, and he really helped them out in that Toronto series that they fell just short in. I suspect he'll come back strong next year. ------------------ Draftsource.net-- the premier source for draft info. Profiles, rankings, mock drafts, and more! The Mo Taylor Fan Site
PR is important, however, the most important factor to ANY fan...the bottom line factor...is "W"s. the casual fan identifies with the team leader, so the trading or perceiving mistreatment of the team icon can have serious repercussions. the move HAD BETTER be an obvious, IMMEDIATE net gain. the casual fan won't remember that trading hakeem for the #5 and #12 and that the #5 & #12 eventually developed into t-mac and j-bender. they remember we traded him for shandn ander....errr....doug christie and skeletor...errr...kevin willis. this is unfortunate, but i believe to be true. never mind the fact that rudy wouldn't have *probably* taken tmac or bender, seeing as how they were high schoolers, and other factors... point being, that to please the average, casual fan (which is the large majority of the fan base, IMO), you have to appease their need for immediate gratification. so if you san antonio and david robinson feels shunned, publicly says so (which he has), and leaves (which is VERY possible), you had better sign chris webber. if you're houston and you let hakeem walk or trade him, you'd better have a better season next year. if you don't the perception will be that we are a 2nd rate city like san antonio. it will be perceived that we can't take care of our own. it will not be perceived as a shrewd business move in the best interest of the franchise long term. so...in summmary...consider PR as much as possible. it is not only what the fans see, it is what ESPN sees and what other NBA players see. but if it's time for a difficult decision, make sure your net is a significant gain, and make sure it is pretty damn immediate. otherwise, there will be hell to pay...
Its more than just PR, its more than just winning. Wilt Chamberlain once said he could not understand fans routing for teams in the 90's when the team changed every year. You rout for the city more so than the players but a constantly changing roster can alienate fans. Changing the team for the best is not always the correct decision. All aspects weigh in before making major changes. Is it improvement over familiarity? Depends on who you ask. ------------------ "banging Shaq is a whole different expirience"-Pete Babcock Behold the power of quotation
So if Payton stays in Seattle, Dee-Rawb stays in SA, and Hakeem stays in Houston, will the trend be back again? If Ewing had ever won his team/city a championship, I imagine he would still be there. ------------------ "I guess that's YOUR theory"
Not really. Other NBA stars have done it too-- I was just trying to come up with some current examples of players in situations like Hakeem. Look at Grant Hill and Jason Kidd lately... they were the backbone of their respective teams. And the final result really doesn't have too much influence on the trend-- for people such as Robinson, Hakeem, and their organizations to seriously consider parting ways shows that things have definitely changed in the recent years. ------------------ Draftsource.net-- the premier source for draft info. Profiles, rankings, mock drafts, and more! The Mo Taylor Fan Site
Huh? T-Mac? Bender was #5 and #12 was Radojevic. Neither of those players have done squat yet, but remember had we done the trade we wouldn't have had to take those same two players...Marion or Szczerbiak and James Posey would have been nice...but then again as Cat said, had we done that trade we might not have Francis today. We might have taken Andre Miller with that #5 pick and then the Francis trade wouldn't have been neccesary...and without Francis, Mobley might be in Toronto this very day...and without the pick from the Francis trade we would have no Griffin...so had we done that trade we might look something like this today: Cato/Collier/Antoine Carr/Willis Mo Taylor/K. Thomas/Othella Harrington James Posey/Walt/Langhi Michael Dickerson/Shandon/Christie Andre Miller/Mooch/Brent Price I would much rather have Francis, Mobley and Griffin than Dickerson, Miller, Harrington, Posey, Carr and Price So it all works out in the end. [This message has been edited by SteveFrancis3 (edited July 12, 2001).]
what the hell is that little morsel. you can't get away with these tip-toeing teases without more elaboration. But note, your answers are being recorded, so anyone here could print them out and drop them at Rudy's house for explanation.
I'm bringin' this one to the top for the same reason crispee posted. Pops, you know I NEVER EVER call you out on this board (I may be the only person to have ever met you in person proving you aren't just a figment of our imagination), but crispee is right. You can't drop that one and walk away! ------------------ How the hell should I know why God would allow the Holocaust. I don't even know how the electric can opener works. - from Hannah and Her Sisters
I think all he meant was that by the 18th or so, things should be resolved one way or another. Anyway, the comparison to Patrick Ewing is totally unfair and invalid. Look at the Rockets last year. They were 22-25 when Hakeem finally started to get minutes. Then he played a great stretch of ball and the team made a valiant run to make the playoffs. Ewing flat out sucks at this stage of his career. Make no mistake about it: HAKEEM GETTING MINUTES LAST YEAR WAS THE REASON THE ROCKETS TURNED THE SHIP AROUND. His defense, rebounding, and post game gave the Rockets a big boost last year and he can still help this team. Without him on the roster, the playoffs next year are probably a long shot realistically. And as for the Hakeem trade to Toronto, the odds of the Rockets making the trade for Steve Francis go WAY down if you make that trade. It's really amazing how disloyal and unappreciative Houston fans are. I guess this is the City where Nolan Ryan and Warren Moon were discarded when they were deemed "too old and washed up". Funny how they both had a lot of success after being washed up though. I'm sure Hakeem will as well if he were to leave Houston. The man still has a lot of game and is arguably the 2nd best Center in the NBA when healthy. ------------------ Get Cato out of there...
Yo oeilpere, what's up with that!? I like how these guys like Doc Rocket and Oeilpere drop these bombs and then leave us squirming, adds a little mystery to them! ------------------ "Instruments are like women: After a while, you want to make love to another." - Nicolas Godin of the musical duo Air
I can be mysterious, hold on a second... hhhggggggggggggg, bbbuuuuuuurrrrrrrrrr. Mmmmm... mysterious.
LOL, that's not quite the same! ------------------ "Instruments are like women: After a while, you want to make love to another." - Nicolas Godin of the musical duo Air
... something i posted on another site that makes some sense here. *** Only a few short years ago it looked as if there was no limit to what players could make in the NBA. Loyalty was such a humoungous thing. And although many NBA greats have played for numerous teams. Now you see more and more Marquee players becomming journey men. Jordan was a Bull Magic was a laker Larry was a Bird... err Celtic and Malone and Stockton were floppers But now, jason kidd gets traded. how could any team let that happen. IMO hes the ultimate team player. I dont want to defend what he did to his wife... and im still only off my wedding 2 months, but even in the most heated arguments i couldnt even fathom that... Hakeem at one point, and may still be looking likely to be gone. David is trying to force the spurs for a pay day using us and chi town. (I dont blame him though. -- hes a competitor. thats why he plays we cant hate him for that. why would he want to take a pay cut for someone to come in and most likely force him out of a starting position.) Stockton was even being considered gone for a bit. Elton Brand was rookie of the year and they traded him. This might help the Bulls, but empirically a team would destroy a team and rebuild it around a player when they knew he was a gem. NOT trade it for potential. I think This new free agency mentality by the players has finally spilled over to the fans and especially team owners. Owners no longer have that "untouchable" label on anyone even though they claim it. And fans are becomming more and more able to adjust to the faces of their team being changing. Who do the lakers have loyalty to? The almighty "W" they wont trade Shaq and Kobe now... but if they are willing to trade expendables now, how long before age creeps up on Shaq and hes expendable too? ------------------ ...The OTHER Dark Meat
You also have to consider the so-called fickle Houston fans (well, not you guys, but there are many transplants in this town .. but I don't want to start a Houston Fans forum on this so lets move on). The Rockets have been a family/hometown type organization for years, even more so in the last decade. In 1984 we drafted the hometown college hoops hero, and arguably choked away some games to do so. In 1995 we traded for the other hometown college hoops hero, Clyde. Then there other other moves...Maloney's connection with Murph, our pickup of Sam Mack, the way we try to trade for Bo Outlaw almost every season. The backlash from fans when we drafted an unknown Euro player and a "Maloney clone" instead of hometown h.s. stud Rashard Lewis was partly because of his projected skill but also because we turned our back on a Houstonian. Lately the return of Cuttino and the drafting of Morris are great examples, not to mention the way Taylor is waiting patiently for us to deal with the Dream situation. The PR dept and the moves the Rockets have made have created this image, and it sells. Since Max, have we had any players getting in trouble with the law? The line between team and family blurs a bit here. Houston fans eat it up. My parents dont like sports that much, but they love the team atmosphere in the Rockets clubhouse right now, so they follow the Rockets and root for them. They love that the Rockets are "such gentlemen". Granted, I know its a business, and most fans do too, but the Rockets have painted a really pretty picture that has led to a lot of us shelling out a HELL of a lot of cash for tickets. Now you ask: What if we look like the bad guys and dump Hakeem? How will fans here respond. From a PR standpoint, I have one name to throw your way: Nolan Ryan. Granted, Nolan had a lot more in his tank than Hakeem does now. But he wanted to stay in Houston and we let him go, and I think it hurt the Astros for years, PR-wise. If Hakeem does want to retire in Houston, and the Rockets think it can be done for a fair amount of money, then I am sure they will do everything possible to do so. I'm jacked at Hakeem right now, but I'll be the first to say that it will be devastating for me and my family to see Dream playing somewhere else. Just like it sucked watching Nolan Ryan play for the Rangers. But like I said, its a business, and you do whats good for the team. You try to make the Rockets a contender ASAP. Eventually the Lake Show will fail, and I'd love to see Shaq get swept again in this city. ------------------
StevieFrancis3: my bad about t-mac. the point is still the same though. no matter who we drafted, unless they were immediate impact stars, the average fan wouldn't like it.
Ask the Seattle Mariners' fans what's more important...bowing down to the legends and signing them at any cost (randy johnson, ken griffey, a rod)..or finding other ways to spend that money. I recognize it's baseball, but I think the analogy fits. In fact, randy, ken and arod were still on top of their games when they left the M's. Hakeem is clearly not still on top of his game. I was absolutely against the Toronto-Hakeem deal...had we done it, we'd be that much further along to championship parades down Smith Street. Now, in retrospect, I wish we had done it..particularly given Hakeem's actions since then. ------------------
I want the CBA to be redesigned to encourage 1-team players more. I'd actually favor allowing a free agent to be unrestricted only after like 10 years of service. If a player is really miserable, he's going to be able to force a trade anyway. ------------------ Clutchcity.net... source for all your Rockets, Astros, political, music, humor, and Gordita news.
