Bethlehem siege sparks church fury Israel says the fire was started accidentally A Roman Catholic spokesman has strongly criticised Israel for a military operation near the Church of the Nativity complex in Bethlehem, sacred to Christians as the birthplace of Jesus Christ. This is an act of indescribable barbarity, a violation of every law of humanity and civilisation Father David Jaeger Franciscan spokesman Several hundred Palestinian gunmen and civilians fleeing Israeli tanks have been holed up in the church complex along with 40 Franciscan friars and four nuns since last Tuesday. Father David Jaeger, who represents Franciscan monks working in the Holy Land, said Israeli soldiers were guilty of an "indescribable act of barbarity". Israel says its troops are under orders not to fire at holy places and blamed Palestinian militants for a fire near the church on Monday. Father Jaeger, himself an Israeli national, said that Israel had broken its international obligations and risked "consequences that will be long-term and incalculable". Israel has pledged not to damage places of worship Speaking from Rome, he said there was evidence that Israeli troops had entered the church and Franciscans there were reporting damage to the building. "We have found evidence of damage after the firing stopped temporarily, we found evidence in the church and in sacred spaces, evidence of damage from firing," he said. The friars had found Israeli ID cards and other items of Israeli military equipment at the scene, the priest added. The Israeli operation also came under fire from the UK Government. Foreign Office Minister Ben Bradshaw said the Israeli action in the area was "totally unacceptable". Click here for a guide to the Church of the Nativity The Israeli army says Palestinian gunmen provoked a fire which broke out the near the Church of the Nativity on Monday. Gunmen had opened fire from a belltower, wounding two Israeli border policemen in a nearby rooftop lookout, an army officer told Reuters news agency. Palestinian civilians in Bethlehem have to contend with an Israeli curfew The Israelis returned fire and a smoke grenade started the blaze in a second-floor meeting hall overlooking the Basilica of St Catherine, which is adjacent to the Church of the Nativity. One Palestinian gunman was shot dead in the gun and grenade battle, the Israeli source said. But a priest inside the Nativity, Father Amjad Sabbara, told the BBC that the Palestinian killed was a police officer who had been trying to douse the flames. He said that the blaze had burned for an hour, destroying a piano, chairs, altar cloths and ceremonial cups. Father Sabbara estimated that there were 240 people in the church. Some, he said, were armed, but they were "not using their arms". The Mayor of Bethlehem, Hanna Nasser, told the BBC that mosaics inside the Basilica of St Catherine had been "affected by the bullets".
Happy? Actually its kind of a like 9-11 feeling in the gut. Like the feeling when I hear about a suicide bomber killing 15. Like when the US misses and kills civilians. Like when China squashed the protest back in 6th grade. Just plain disgust. Does anyone remember how Noriega stalled capture? Disjust with the Palestianian militants for using diseccrating Holy sites. Disjust with the israelis for doing the same.
If it was up to me, I would say lets invade the Middle East, quickly mop all governments in the region, and establish a protectorate of the United States. The region would be under the command of the United States Military, sort of like martial law.
BTW, this mother****ing bull**** has gone on long enough. I was just thinking. What the ****. These people have been killing each other forever. Its insane. Its ridiculous. People can take sides, people can say "The Israelies are money, die Arabs" or "**** the Jews, they are wrong" but when it comes down to it, that solves nothing. The best way to stop the fighting, is by force. Strong force. Maybe if a new generation of Arab and Israeli kids can grow up in a region not destroyed by constant war, they can learn to coexist peacefully. I swear to God, they hate each other so much, but lets see their hate stand up to the full power of the Armed Forces. Jesus.
I get the feeling that people are beginning to be just as sick of Israel as they are of Palestine. It was only a matter of time before both sides looked like jackasses.
Jeff, I hope you're right that people ( the American public) are getting sick of both sides. I believe that the US public has long been sick of Palestinian terrorism. If they would now get sick of Sharon/Peres style Israeli resistance to a real Palestinian state too, this could be the beginning of a viable homeland for the Palestinians and peace in the region. Since the US has been Israel's virtual only ally in the world, especially when it comes to denying the Palestinians a state, Sharon style, Sharon is just blustering for a few days. Even with as much as a war boosted 72% of the Israelis supporting his tactics, he knows the show is up if we would ever stop funding Israel. Their economy can't stand continual war footing, which pulls reservists away from the civilian economy. An article in last week's Time Magazine, which I read in print, showed how Israel is essentially forced to go on the offensive and go for a quick war victory after 30 days. If Israel would call up its approx 400,000 reservists the econmy would collapse after 30 days.. The Israeli economy has already contracted greatly last year between a near collapse of tourism (would you vacation there?) and troubles with high tech. So, despite their nuclear weapons and the top rate conventional weapons we supply them , they are utterly vulnerable to international pressure, if we as the only superpower,stop backing them almost unconditionally. The European Union is even beginning to talk of economic sanctions agsinst Israel.
Looks Like I'm Not the Only one Looking For a Unconditional Withdrawl, i think the former head of Israeli National Security would know better than most of us. ============================================= Interview with Ami Ayalon, Former Head of Israeli Shin Bet An unconditional withdrawal from the Territories is urgently needed interview by Alain Cypel, Le Monde -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This interview with Ami Ayalon, the former head if Israeli's Shin Bet, appeared in Le Monde in December 22, 2001, and wsa translated from the original French. It also appears on the very important website, Mid-East Realities (MER) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [Small, lean, dressed in jeans and an open shirt, Ayalon speaks calmly, but forcefully. Ami Ayalon headed the Insraeli Shin Bet (internal security) from 1996 to 2000 during the Prime Ministerships of Bibi Netanayahu and Ehud Barak] Ami Ayalon: Israeli society, top to bottom, is sinking into confusion. There are no reference points. People mask this reality with swaggering slogans: "We will vanquish terrorism!". At a colloquium, the army chief of staff declares: "We are winning"; he evokes the "superiority of Tsahal"—the Israeli army—and his "feeling that the nation is finding its strength." Then he adds "there are today more Palestinian terrorists than a year ago" and says there will be even more tomorrow! If we are winning, how come terrorists are multiplying? In Israel, no one is in touch with reality. This is a consequence of a misperception of the peace process. "We have been generous and they refused!" is ridiculous, and everything that follows from this misperception is skewed. Moreover, our obsession with the Palestinians makes us forget to ask questions about ourselves. What do we want to be? Where are we going? No leader addresses these questions. Thus the confusion and general anxiety. AC: The majority of leaders though are convinced that time works in favor of Israel. AA: Since September 11, our leaders have been euphoric. With no more international pressures on Israel, they think, the way is open. This obscures the consequences of our holding onto the Palestinian Territories. This is not only a moral matter. Our founders saw a state that provided a homeland for Jews and was a democracy. From both points of view, time plays against us! Demographically, it works in favor of the Palestinians. And politically in favor of Hamas and the settlers. But to fight against Hamas, we must evacuate the settlers, whose proximity to the Palestinians reinforces hatred. Among the Palestinians, the weight of the Islamists is increasing, and also that of intellectuals who used to favor a two-state solution, but who now say: "Since the Israelis will never evacuate the settlements, well, then, there will be a binational state." This is something I absolutely oppose. It would not be a Jewish state any more. And if it remained a Jewish state while dominating the Arab population, it would not be a democracy. AC: Do you exclude the possibility of an Israeli victory, despite the power differential? AA: We have had our "victory"! In 1967, we occupied all the Palestinian lands. Once "terrorism is vanquished," what shall we do? This is absurd. The Palestinians want self-rule. Whoever wants to "vanquish" them, then offer them bread and circuses, understands nothing. The Israeli army is stronger than ever, our secret services are excellent; then why is the problem not resolved? Reoccupying the Palestinian Authority lands, and killing Arafat, what would that change? Those who want victory want an unending war. AC: Yet, since September 11, many think that Israel can change the regional situation in its favor. AA: An illusion! September 11 has changed many paradigms in the U.S., but nothing basic in the Middle East. Whatever Arafat's errors, the Palestinian people will continue to exist. As long as the Palestinian question is not resolved, the region will not know stability. Only a Palestinian state will preserve the Jewish and democratic character of Israel. We do need international political and financial help to resolve that problem and that of the refugees, because as long as the refugee problem persists, even if a Palestinian state exists, it will poison our relationship. AC: But the Israelis are traumatized by the Palestinian demand for the return of refugees. AA: Let us stop worrying about what our adversaries say and ask what we, ourselves, want. We do not want the return of the refugees. But we can refuse only if Israel acknowledges unambiguously its role in the suffering of the Palestinians and its obligation to help solve the problem. Israel must accept the principle of the right of return and the PLO must commit itself to not question the Jewish identity of our state. AC: What do you think of the view put forth by the head of Mossad of Israel in the front line of the "third world war" against terrorism? AA: Anyone who equals Arafat with Bin Laden understand neither Arafat nor Bin Laden. The latter is the guru of a very harmful sect, but one that is very marginal to Islam; it aims to bring chaos and cares nothing about the international community. But Arafat dreams of being accepted by the international community—since 1993, he has constantly made reference to it, demanding the application of the UN resolutions, while we, Israelis, refuse! If Bin Laden is killed, his sect may disappear with him. If we kill Arafat, the Palestinian people will continue to want its independence. AC: Do you fear that the Palestinian Territories may become a quagmire? AA: We say the Palestinians behave like "madmen," but it is not madness but a bottomless despair. As long as there was a peace process—the prospect of an end to the occupation—Arafat could maneuver, incite or repress violence to better negotiate. When there is no more peace process, the more terrorists one kills the more strength their camp gains. Yasser Arafat neither prepared nor triggered the Intifada. The explosion was spontaneous, against Israel, as all hope for the end of occupation disappeared, and against the Palestinian authority, its corruption, its impotence. Arafat could not repress it. The peace process is what allowed Arafat to be seen as the head of a national liberation movement rather than a collaborator of Israel. Without it, he can fight neither against the Islamists nor against his own base. The Palestinians would end up hanging him in the public square. AC: From Oslo to Camp David, did Israel miss a rare opportunity for peace? AA: Yes. It is not all the Israelis' fault. The Palestinians, the international community, bear some responsibility, but we missed an extraordinary opportunity: the international situation was incredibly favorable after the fall of communism, the Gulf war, the emergence of globalization, all these phenomena led Israel to reexamine its own assumptions. Now, we are regressing. AC: Do you favor a "unilateral separation" from the Palestinians? AA: I do not like the word separation, it reminds me of South Africa. I favor unconditional withdrawal from the Territories—preferably in the context of an agreement, but not necessarily: what needs to be done, urgently, is to withdraw from the Territories. And a true withdrawal, which gives the Palestinians territorial continuity in a Transjordan linked to Gaza, open to Egypt and Jordan. If they proclaim their own state, Israel should be the first to recognize it and to propose state to state negotiations, without conditions, on the basis of the Clinton proposals, to resolve all pending problems.
<A HREF="http://bbs.clutchcity.net/php3/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28405">The interview with Ami Ayalon was posted here</A> Mango
I Would have thought that Muslims and Christians would be outraged at what these groups were doing to the Church of the Nativity. Christians and Muslims are the only religions in the World that believe that Jesus was a holy man from God. I would think that the Israelis army ( a religious army that never believed in Jesus) attacking groups seeking refuge in his birthplace would spark more fury. If muslim militants are using it, I will be just as upset. Of course its hard to believe they are all "militants", the Israelis Press and Army seem to call every Palestinian male a "militant" They are now rounding up all men that fit the profile. Meaning all men between the age of 15 and 50 and placing them under arrest and in camps. Maybe they should have them wear a yellow crescent moon on their chest too, easier to recognize them and it will be for their own protection too
Christains believe that Jesus <i>is</i> God. According to the bible and His words (start with John), He is either Lord, lunitic or liar. You could say it's in the translation, but the Jews didn't want to stone him (multiple times) because of translation. He claimed - and I believe - He was, and is and is to come - equal to God the Father. Just like H2O can exist in 3 states (water, ice and steam), the Father, Son and Spirit exist. While this is a neat place to visit and it's sad to hear about what is going on in the Middle East, it doesn't take anything away from Yahweh - He owns it all.
Also, a Christian's own body is the "temple" or holy place that we are directed to worship from. We don't have a recognized "holy sight."(Catholics might.) So we don't have to worship at a particular place or specific direction. Jesus forged this personal relationship that removes the need for "worship magnifiers" (i.e. locations or mediators) or other traditions. So our prayers and concerns are for those involved in the conflict instead of the location of the conflict.
Khan, You put quotes on militants suggesting it is a qoutation. Since I'm one that used it I guess it was refering to my post. I used the word militants to separate the Palestinian militants who I blame from the general Palestinian public who I do not blame. I should have said Israeli government instead of Israelis. Sorry if I've offended any Israelis or Jews.
Here is a good article by an ex Israeli cabinet minister who resigned from the Labor Party rather than enter the coalition government with Sharon. He is considered a rising star in the Labor Party who has not been compromised by associating with Sharon. True friends of Israel oppose Sharon's war By Yossi Beilin, 4/9/2002 GOOD FRIENDS can not only disagree from time to time, but are actually better friends for their willingness to offer frank advice, as President Bush demonstrated with his recent speech on the Israeli-Palestinian crisis. When the world was simpler and based on a bipolar political system, friendship was also simpler. Friends of Israel were those who understood that Jews, too, deserved to have a state of their own after the Holocaust and the terrible sufferings they had endured. These friends were proud that Israel was a democratic state and understood its need to defend itself against Arab states that refused to recognize it. They largely attributed the Palestinian refugee problem that was created in 1948 to a Palestinian leadership that encouraged the Arabs to leave their homes only to return later together with the victorious Arab armies that would destroy the new State of Israel. The friends of the Arab states viewed Israel as a foreign body existing within the Middle East. They did not understand why the Palestinians had to pay the price of the European Jews' Holocaust and viewed Zionist immigration as part of a colonialist process driving another people into oppression. They viewed the Palestinian refugee problem as resulting exclusively from their eviction by the Israelis and from brutalities committed against the refugees in some villages. The world has changed. It is now a multipolar world dominated by one superpower - the United States. The process that was triggered by the Israeli-Egyptian agreement of 1978 and continued with the Madrid Conference of 1991, the Oslo accords of 1993, and the Israeli-Jordanian peace agreement of 1994 has generated a completely new situation. Friendship with the Arab side is compatible with friendship with Israel and vice versa. True friendship with Israel and true friendship with the Arab side means true support for peace, which can save both Israel and the Arabs from continued violence and even more victims. Rob Malley, an adviser to former President Clinton, recently noted that Clinton was Israel's greatest friend and the Palestinians' greatest friend. He was right. President Carter, too, was a great friend of Israel and Egypt, while President George H.W. Bush was equally a friend of Israel and of the Arab states. A friend who tells Israel, you are right in all respects, keep on fighting, you have no real partner for negotiation, and you are doomed to live by the sword, is no real friend. This is the worst message that Israel could receive. The hope of Israel is to live a normal and safe life not as a foreign body surrounded by enemies who wish its destruction but as an integral part of the Middle East. Anyone who can help us achieve this goal is our true friend. Palestinian terror is indeed cruel and horrible. Israel's desire to respond to it is understandable. However, the war that the Sharon government has embarked upon cannot succeed in subduing the terror. Terror begins in minds and hearts, and it can be uprooted only by Israeli-Palestinian cooperation, not by force. The quietest periods in recent years have been during close cooperation between the Israeli and Palestinian security establishments to the benefit of both sides. Destroying the Palestinian Authority's infrastructure is a terrible error because, although it is tainted by terror, it contains within it the potential of renewed cooperation for which there is no better alternative. The war against the Palestinians is one that will increase the hatred and desire for revenge. It will weaken moderate Arab regimes and undermine existing agreements between Israel and the states that made peace with it. The war will create a new focus of danger in the world. True support of Israel does not mean support for continuing a purposeless war but rather support for its quick termination. The objectives of Israel's true friends are: quieting things down, rehabilitating the Palestinian Authority, marking a distinction between those whose purpose is terrorism and the pragmatic groups that aligned themselves with terrorism as part of this terrible escalation but who will be prepared to disavow it, a cease-fire agreement that the Palestinian Authority is capable of implementing, and a speedy return to the negotiating table toward a permanent status agreement. The hope is that President Bush's speech is a first step in this direction. Time is running out, and real friendship is needed more than ever. Yossi Beilin is a former Israeli justice minister.
This is incorrect. Many Buddhists believe that Jesus was an incarnation of the Buddha. Other religions refer to Jesus as a "prophet from God" like Judiasm.
going on two days now I've been thinking about the exact words to respond in the spirit of your post above!! well put!! thanks!
I personally find it cowardly and despicable that the Palestinian gunmen would provoke a fight with the Israelis and then make a run for the nearest Christian holy sight that they could find in an effort to bring the Christian world into the war on their side if the Israelis attacked them. The IDF soldiers were in a lose-lose situation. I think they made the smart choice in putting the lives and safety of their people ahead of the political and hisorical damage caused by attacking the Palestinians hiding within the church. Or maybe some of you thought that the men who "were armed, but they were 'not using their arms'", were not going to later come out of the church and start fighting again. Maybe they all became pacifists after running into the church with their tails between their legs.
I think those who oppose sanctions against Israel and other forms of serious pressure to bring sense to them are not being a true friend of Israel. To oppose such nonviolent tactics and to keep giving the Israelis the message that we will continue to support their attempts to conquer more land by building more settlments is to be for death and destruction. It is to favor the conditions that promote suicide bombers and the Israeli retaliations" as the press calls them that with near 100% certainty kill more additional innocent people. It is a shame as the American people have the ability to release Israel and Palestine from the death grip they are in. To do so involves little expenditure and almost no military action by the US other than supplying UN peacekeepers. Those who advocate death and neverending war and try to justify it by the need to defend the "sacred rock" or the "sacred wall" or the "sacred church, temple or mosque" likewise do not have my sympathy.
Why not put the West Bank under the protection of Egypt? Let Israel withdraw, and have an Egyptian police force maintain the peace in the Palastinian state. Put it in a protectorate to where they get their own country in 10 years if they can maintain come civility. DaDakota
