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How dare you rank Kobe Bryant ahead of Magic Johnson...

Discussion in 'NBA Dish' started by RudyTBag, Sep 17, 2011.

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Magic or Kobe?

  1. Magic Johnson

    72 vote(s)
    73.5%
  2. Get a brain MORANS!!!

    26 vote(s)
    26.5%
  1. Shroopy2

    Shroopy2 Member

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    I disagree with Hakeem being superior to every center in EVERY single facet of the game.

    "Lew Alcindor" was a beast. He wasnt just some Ryan Hollins out there


    [​IMG][​IMG]


    Kareem was still arguably the best Lakers player by a nose in Magic's first 2 years in the league. (Magic got hurt his 2nd year, but still) Magic only played half the games his 2nd year the and Lakers still had 54 wins. Year after with Magic playing a full season, Lakers had 57 wins. So Kareem was a big factor.

    For all of Hakeem's great footwork and moves and ferocity, old man Kareem still beat Hakeem soundly in FG%. The same argument used to support Magic being better than Kobe.

    Not saying Kareem is better. Hakeem has the greatest defensive RANGE of any center for sure. Just that the predecessors held their own.
     
  2. RudyTBag

    RudyTBag Member
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    Correct. I am not disputing Kareem's greatness.

    Kareem's greatness proves beyond a doubt how great Hakeem was, imo, because I DO think that Hakeem was in a whole different universe.

    Back on topic, Kobe is not automatically greater than Magic, like most of these fans out here in Cali would have you believe... :)
     
  3. Z-Ro&Trae

    Z-Ro&Trae Member

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    knote is the greatest poster ever.
     
  4. T.Mcgrady

    T.Mcgrady Member

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    I think your memories of KAJ are jaded. You understand that a 38 year old Kareem Abdul-Jabber dropped 40+ points on the twin towers multiple times? He outscored both Ralph and Hakeem *combined* multiple times and did it while shooting at a higher efficiency?

    At his peak, he won the MVP 5 years in a row (6 out of 7 years total). I don't think you're contemplating how dominant this guy was. The only player near him statistically/when accolades are considered is..... Michael Jordan. Hakeem is a legend, but Kareem is a legend among legends.

    BTW, how exactly was Bird inferior to Michael during his prime? The only knock against Bird was his injuries. Despite his back issues, he continued to kill it until his retirement. You realize that including his injury-riddled years Bird averaged 28/8/7/1/1 on 50/45/90 from the field against the Bulls? 29/12/7/3/1 against the Rockets?

    The guy was a monster.
     
  5. meh

    meh Member

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    As much as I hate to say this, but Hakeem for much of his career was that "great but not quite" player. He was always in that range with Ewing, Robinson, etc. Among the best, but never quite the best.

    The problem is that this stretch lasted for most of Hakeem's prime years. So when he actually reached his zenith as a player, he was too old to maintain that play for a long time. To me, that's what's holding back Hakeem's legacy. That he spent too much of his career stuck in the between-star-and-superstar zone who never really stood out among the pack. And it's hard to be an all-time great when that's most of your career.

    Arguing Hakeem's skills is meaningless. This isn't about peak play. Peak play Hakeem's championship years can go toe to toe with the peak of any center in history. The problem is the rest of his career.
     
  6. t_mac1

    t_mac1 Member

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    What world are you living in? Magic is considered to be a top 3 player of all time. Kobe is barely scratching the top 10, and most likely will be in for sure once he retires.

    In LA, Magic is still a bigger legend/brand b/c he's still such a big influence here off the court. And I live in OC.
     
  7. PDJACK7

    PDJACK7 Member

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    I agree. He is always left off the top player list because of where he played. If he would have played in L.A. or New York, he would always be in the discussion. The same with Hakeem... If New Yorkers think Ewing was a great player, they would have considered Dream a "god".<p>Back to the subject, it was hard for me but I picked Kobe. Then I realized I made a mistake. They are different players. If I want scoring I have to go with Kobe, but if I need a floor general that can get everyone involved it's Magic. By the way Magic is my all-time favorite non-rocket. I cried when he had to retire...
     
  8. goodbug

    goodbug Member

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    LOL, Magic couldn't win a ring without Jabbar. At 39, he still got 19.2/6.8 in playoff. Before asking if Kobe can rank ahead of Magic, you should ask if Gasol can hold Jabbar's jockstrap.
     
  9. Yao Ming's foot

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    Honors
    1977 McDonald's All American
    1977-78 NCAA AP All-America (3rd)
    1978-79 NCAA AP All-America (1st)
    1979-80 NBA All-Rookie (1st)
    1981-82 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
    1982-83 NBA All-NBA (1st)
    1983-84 NBA All-NBA (1st)
    1984-85 NBA All-NBA (1st)
    1985-86 NBA All-NBA (1st)
    1986-87 NBA All-NBA (1st)
    1987-88 NBA All-NBA (1st)
    1988-89 NBA All-NBA (1st)
    1989-90 NBA All-NBA (1st)
    1990-91 NBA All-NBA (1st)

    vs

    Honors
    1996 McDonald's All American
    1996-97 NBA All-Rookie (2nd)
    1998-99 NBA All-NBA (3rd)
    1999-00 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
    1999-00 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
    2000-01 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
    2000-01 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
    2001-02 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
    2001-02 NBA All-NBA (1st)
    2002-03 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
    2002-03 NBA All-NBA (1st)
    2003-04 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
    2003-04 NBA All-NBA (1st)
    2004-05 NBA All-NBA (3rd)
    2005-06 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
    2005-06 NBA All-NBA (1st)
    2006-07 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
    2006-07 NBA All-NBA (1st)
    2007-08 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
    2007-08 NBA All-NBA (1st)
    2008-09 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
    2008-09 NBA All-NBA (1st)
    2009-10 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
    2009-10 NBA All-NBA (1st)
    2010-11 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
    2010-11 NBA All-NBA (1st)

    Kobe crushes Magic on defense and will crush him on career longevity.
     
  10. StupidMoniker

    StupidMoniker I lost a bet

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    I've watched plenty of tape of Kareem and Wilt, and of course have seen Hakeem play. Hakeem had better footwork and better hands defensively than both. Kareem was slower, but taller and a better and more efficient scorer. Wilt was not as good a shooter but superior in basically every other aspect of the game. He was bigger, stronger, could jump higher, and just dominated at a level that no one has before or since.

    The centerless era BS is the worst argument that people trot out against Wilt. I've addressed it before (with no response) so I'll just paste what I wrote then here:
    Bob Pettit - Hall of Fame, averaged 31.1 ppg and 18.7 rpg in 1961-62 (the year Wilt averaged 50 and 25).
    Walt Bellamy - Hall of Fame, averaged 31.6 ppg and 19.0 rpg in 1961-62 (as a rookie)
    Bill Russell - Hall of Fame, averaged 18.9 ppg and 23.6 rpg in 1961-62
    Red Kerr - averaged 16.3 and 14.7
    Rudy Larusso - averaged 17.2 and 10.4
    Wayne Embry - averaged 19.8 and 13.0
    Walter Dukes - only averaged 9.4 and 10.4 (but was splitting time, only 24 mpg)
    Phil Jordan - only averaged 11.9 and 6.3 in the Knicks center by committee system

    So a third of the guys he played against are all time great Hall of Famers (Pettit, Bellamy, and Russell) and the others would probably still be about as good as average centers in the 80s and 90s. Should Hakeem be marked down because the majority of his games were played against the likes of Sam Perkins, Felton Spencer, Mark West, Victor Alexander, Elmore Spencer, Olden Polynice, Vlade Divac, Buck Willams, etc.? (all of those are Western Conference starting centers from Hakeem's MVP season). If anything, Wilt probably faced great centers more often than guys that played later.
     
    1 person likes this.
  11. cheshire

    cheshire Member

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    How many of Kobe's All-Defensive selections were based on reputation rather than performance?
     
  12. ItsMyFault

    ItsMyFault Member

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    knote32... It's your opinion to think that Hakeem was the greatest center of all-time. Just because most people wouldn't agree with that statement (and around the NBA and most fans probably wouldn't) it isn't farfetched. I personally think it's between Wilt and Kareem followed by Hakeem and then Russell.
     
  13. Yao Ming's foot

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    Its irrelevant unless you believe Kobe's legendary status and reputation around the league exceeds Magic's while he was playing.
     
  14. spressa

    spressa Member

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    as much as i love hakeem.....he isn't a better center thank kareem or wilt.

    to put some perspective into this argument...

    how many people realize that 4 of kareem's years didn't record blocking as an attribute - if you look at the numbers - kareem is probably the all time shot blocking leader. kareem's sky hook is > dream shake on efficiency. dream shake is up there with one of my favorite things to watch of all time, but sky hook is straight up unblockable unless you jump 50 inches or foul.

    to give some argument for wilt - dude was like a 21 year old man playing with 8 year old boys. before you go on to say how athletic hakeem as....do you realize the athleticism that wilt had? dude benched 550, had a vertical leap of 40"+, etc. alot of things could be a farce like multiple people being able to grab the top of the backboard but still - wilt is one of the most athletic athletes (not just basketball players) of all time.
     
  15. MorningZippo

    MorningZippo Member

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    I like to think that the lockout has driven away some of the complete idiots and trolls. I would say it's actually helped this website, not in terms of popularity, but in quality of posts.
     
  16. Mr. Clutch

    Mr. Clutch Member

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    Kobe is, at best, the 4th best Laker of all- time.

    And I'm considering putting Jerry West ahead of him.
     
  17. Easy

    Easy Boban Only Fan
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    So you are using voted honors to argue against objective data?
     
  18. Yao Ming's foot

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    I never said anything about the stats. If objective data against different players under different rules in different eras with different teammates is the gospel to you more power to you.

    The gap Kobe and Magic defensively is greater than the gap between the two on offense and the elephant in the room is Magic's premature retirement due to his illness. 50% of the game is defense and longevity mattters. Its not even remotely controversial to suggest Kobe is more highly ranked all time than Magic.

    Just a couple of run of the mill Kobe homers (Shaq and Jerry West)

    Take a que from the man himself and apologize for your ignorance
     
  19. Yao Ming's foot

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    PS. Even the stats are flawed for including teenage Kobe when Magic entered the league after 2 years of college
     

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