Houston shows forgets baseball

Texans going nowhere? They're undefeated!

 

The Texans are the new toy in Houston's pro sports toybox. Naturally they are going to get the lion's share of the attention locally.

 

Negatory. I know this will provoke a Refman rant, but you could thank Scrooge McLane for the Stros not being able to hold on to talent or sign marquee players. Fact is that Houston is a front-runner/fair-weather sports city. Drayton should know this, and should have given fans a reason to think the team is better than in years before, where they tease during the regular season, and fold like a cheap tent in Oct.

McLane's idea of shaking things up was by firing Dierker. I don't blame that move, but what I do find funny is that really was the only significant move the Astros made in the offseason. Managers do not sell tickets, players do. If Drayton expected sellout crowds to watch Jimmy trot his fat arse up and down the dugout, then he should stick to being a grocery supplier.

Ever since Drayton's arrival as owner, there have been 3 notable attendance surges. The first, was when he actually spent money to bring in Doug Drabek, and Greg Swindell. The 2nd, was when the Astros brought in Big Unit. The 3rd, was when the Astros moved into EarnedRun Field. Yet, Drayton felt the need to SLASH payroll before entering the new ballpark. Wasn't the point of the new ballpark, to increase payroll somewhat? Or at least, prevent payroll slashing?

Drayton STILL feels burned from his Drabek and Swindell acquisitions from 10 years ago. Drayton needs to wake up and realize what's in the past is in the past. Move on. I am an Astros fan, but I will never have faith in them, until Drayton shows a full commitment to winning. He says all the right things, but never shows it with action. The ultimate snakeoil salesman.

 

Wrong. Players don't sell tickets, winning does. Drayton put a very good product out on the field this season. The reason he didn't "shake things up" was because last season's team was already pretty good, and screwing with a winning formula is usually not all that great of an idea. Of course, then you might say, "If it was a winning formula, why did he let Alou and Castilla go?" Well, that turned out to be a pretty damn good move, because both players have sucked this season, as many suspected they would. But even if they hadn't, perhaps Drayton let them go just so he could "shake things up." Bottom line, Drayton sent the Astros team out on the field with a lot of talent this season. A good deal of the talent did not perform up to its ability until too late, but that can't really be blamed on McClane. If we had been winning all season like we are in the second half, I guarantee you the seats would be full even if all the players were the same.

 

Exactly what I was going to say. If a Houston team is struggling, the attendance will be down (just look at the Rockets). The typical Houston resident doesn't have time to go to a ton of games each year, especially if the team is not winning.

Sure, the Astros were in a pennant race, but I don't think many people really believe they are going to go far this year. The scrimmage was the Texans' first <i>ever</i> public showing of a game situation, and people have been waiting on this for a couple of years now. There's no way I'd expect any of the <b>81</b> Astros home games to outsell a Texans game, unless maybe it was a playoff game.

 

I think the Minnesota Twins franchise would disagree with you, as would I.

The Twins averages 23,793 people per HOME game, even though the team is on its way to winning the pennant. The shoddy attendance even prompted a Twin player to say that "he'd rather win the pennant in Cleveland than at home, because there will be more people there."

Oakland only averages 26,090 people per home game.
Anaheim only averages 27,666 people per home game.

Its not only winning, but winning over an extended period of time. There must be a history of fielding winning teams by signing major free agents and holding onto your own free agents. Of course, it helps to be located in a major market as well.

Houston has a history of flaming out in the first round. Teams like the Braves, Yankees, Cardinals, and Giants have a history of winning OR at least getting out of the first round occasionally.

 

The Twins and the A's are both in smaller markets, as you said. They are going to have difficulty filling up the stadiums no matter how hard they play. But even so, I never said that all you have to do to put fannies in the seats is to win for one season. I said winning puts fans in the seats, not simply players. Look at the Rangers...they went out and got the BIGGEST name FA (arguably), and the rest of their offense is peppered with moderate-big name offensive players. Does that team's fans pack it in every night? Hell no. The team can't win. Then you take a look at the Mariners...few big stars left after their big trio of Randy Johnson, A-Rod and Griffey Jr left. But they are winning (despite this season's flameout towards the end in the toughest division in baseball) and the fans are responding. Certainly for teams that have had a history of poor play, fans are not going to immediately respond within one season...but if a team can consistently win from season to season, whether with big name FAs or not, then the fans will come. I just don't buy the notion that a team has no chance of being competitive and drawing fans unless they go out "shake things up."

 

As far as the texans practice... I believe that was the practice that was for season ticket holders at reliant stadium.. those people had paid a fortune for their season tickets years ago in some cases and it was their first chance to check out the stadium etc........ it really shouldnt be a surprise.. did you expect all those season ticket holders to skip the opened practice after all the money they paid for the tickets.. there are more season ticket holders for the texans..than minute maid park holds.. so it shouldnt be a surprise that it outdrew the astros.. it just makes sense..

 

This title needs a semi-colon bad

smashfast

 

I can't for the life of me figure out what the title is trying to communicate.

Houston shows????

 

Winning formula? You mean regular season right? I'm sorry, but there are plenty of Astros fans like myself, who are tired of the tease known as the regular season, only to get wiped out instantly in the playoofs.

Fact is, that the Astros must IMPROVE their roster to be a WS contender. Why is it that hard to see? It seems like Drayton is happy with 90+ wins, if it means saving more money, than going out on a limb financially, and trying to build a WS contender.

I don't blame letting Castilla and Alou go, I wanted them gone. What I did want, was the Astros to replace them adquately, or even upgrade those positions. We relied way too much on huge question marks in the beginning of the season, in Ensberg, Hidalgo, and Ward. Now that we know that Hidalgo is no better than average, I wish the Astros would find a way to trade Ward and prospects (because Hidalgo is all but untradable) and add another stick in the lineup.

Every year, our roster gets worse and worse. Fortunately, guys like Berkman, Oswalt, and Miller have come up through the system to protect Drayton from looking like the fraud that he is. If our home grown talent didn't pan out, the Astros would be a 65-70 win team.

Eventually, the Astros will need to add key FAs in addition to homegrown players. Our farm system cannot replenish itself as fast as the Astros need to replace key losses via FA.

 

Then blame the .330 hitters who combine for .130 in the playoffs. I suppose you'd rather not have Jeff Bagwell and Craig Biggio though.

And how do you do that genius? Go get Giambi? I don't think so...Jeff Bagwell plays that position. Go get Kevin Brown a couple of years ago? Yeah he's done REAL WELL for LA. You can't solve everything by throwing a ton of cash at it. Two of the largest payrolls in the majors (LA and the Mets) are nowhere CLOSE to WS contention.

Most people in baseball would be thrilled with 90+ wins each year. If you'll recall, last year 93 wins (for the Astros) was the BEST record in the NL...but you're not happy with that.

Saving more money... You are really ignorant to call a $68M payroll "saving money."

How much should he lose? When would you be satisfied? Don't give me this s*** about the Yankees. We have HALF of their revenue. Ironically we have a little more than half their payroll.

Do you remember 1998? That team was the best Astros team during this stretch of playoff teams. He traded for the Unit...but he's not trying to build a WS contender.

Hidalgo had a breakout year 2 years ago and Drayton locked him up with a fat contract...but he's cheap right? Everybody thought that Hidalgo would be the other stick after he hit 42 HRs in 2000. There are already rumors that Hidalgo will be traded in the offseason for Hampton and Pierre. They'd pick up Hampy's huge salary...but Drayton's cheap.

Please put the bong down BEFORE posting.

Making room for those guys was a calculated baseball decision. They KNEW these guys would become cornerstones once they came up and got major league seasoning. Anybody who knows a damn thing about baseball knew that wasn't a big risk.

In 1988 did you ask who the hell Biggio was? How about Bagwell in 1991? Did you complain that we didn't trade of sign a FA to replace Doran and we converted Biggio to 2B instead? That worked out pretty well. The Astros have a HISTORY of utilizing home grown talent to build a good ballclub.

Which one? When you answer only choose players who play a position we don't have an All-Star contender at already.

Did you also assume years ago that Bags and Bidge would be lost as FAs? Drayton has shown a willingness to give fat contracts to keep key players. It isn't just spending money...you have to spend it wisely.

You probably will toss barbs at me instead of responding to the FACTS I have presented. It doesn't bother me...it'll just make you look like a dumbass.

 

New York:
Your post is stupid. They are an expansion team, in a big football city that lost its team a couple of years back. What do you expect? It is their first chance to see the Texans play.

 

1. 68 mill isn't a large market payroll.
2. Let's wait and see if Hidalgo and Pierre/Hampton actually goes down before we applaud Drayton for trying to feel a team that can push further into the postseason (or this year's case-get there).
3. The late 80s/early 90s Astros were a different team. They were nowhere near being ready to contend, so gambling with youngsters allowed them to find out about their players. Biggio was already an all-star catcher, and moving catchers with speed to another position to maintain their legs is not uncommon.

Players to sign where we didn't have all-stars:
Johnny Damon (prototype leadoff hitter/CF; Ward and Hidalgo were both not sure things)
pitching like Mike Williams or any number of relievers, rather than having a crew of guys like Ricky Stone, Brandon Puffer, and other unknowns carrying the middle relief load.
starting pitching-relying on Dave Mlicki, and a deteriorating Reynolds plus youngsters like Roy, Wade, and Carlos is dangerous. Keeping a guy like Astacio would have really provided our rotation with stability, rather than forcing up Redding and Saarloos, and gambling with Pete Munro.

This offseason: Scott Rolen. Ensberg didn't work. We need serious help at 3B. Relying on Blum as our primary 3B just doesn't work. We could still use a real CF so Berkman isn't playing out of position, especially in our big CF. Isn't Beltran a FA this year? Picking up the aftorementioned Pierre would be nice. We could still use another vet. starter with Reynolds/Mlicki likely moving on.

Bagwell and Biggio are Astros icons. Drayton wasn't going to let them go by any means. They are our identity. Let's see if he can keep our whole rotation together.

 

Hell, he's from NY, probably pronounces Houston wrong.


Oh wait....I was born in NY.....shhhh.

Perception of fairweather fan base in Houston is mostly accurate, except football. Bud didnt leave because of fan problems. We stopped going in 1994 not because we went 2-14 but because Bud said give him more $$ or he was bailing. The season opener versus the Bills was sold out, and that was the weekend after rookie Marshall Faulk ran all over us and Cody got broken in half.

You put the Astros or the Rockets against the Texans this year and football wins, hands down. We're hungry for it.

 

By all accounts, the Astros are not a large market team. Houston falls into the dreaded mid-market category.

Agreed. If this deal doesn't go down it won't be due to payroll. It will be because 1) Colorado will decide against taking Hidalgo or 2) the Astros will decide that banking on a return to old form for Hampy is too risky.

I know they were a different team. But signing FAs isn't always the answer. Sometimes you have to give your young guys a chance to produce in the bigs. Miller and Oswalt were no brainers. Jason Lane has won the MVP in every league he's played in except AAA (and that is because he didn't play a full season there). He has been a nice suprise. Saarloos had a ridiculously good record in AA...we brought him up and he wasn't ready. We sent him to AAA and he started dominating. He's been a good 4th starter ever since. This guy could become something really special. If not, he'll be a serviceable 4th starter on a contending team. My point is that signing FAs is not always the best way to build the ballclub. (see LA Dodgers, Baltimore Orioles, Texas Rangers) Sometimes bringing up home grown talent works pretty well. (see Oakland A's and Anaheim Angels)

Would have been a good pickup. The only problem is that we had a logjam in the outfield of players that Astros brass were sold on (Ward, Hidalgo, Lane) and a player in the outfield playing out of position (Berkman). I agree he would have been a good pickup, but disagree that money was the main factor in not signing him.

Wanted to be the closer. That wasn't gonna happen with Wags and Dotel here. He was leaving regardless.

You really can't complain about how Stone has performed most of the year. Overall the pitching has been good...anyway you could throw Cy Young out there and we won't win in the playoffs if Bags and Bidge combine for .130 in the playoffs.

I'll agree with you as to Mlicki and Hernandez (I'm not sold on him). Reynolds had a HUGE contract so we were kinda stuck. Roy and Wade are no-brainers to have in the rotation.

You can't complain about the performance of Munro and Saarloos. Munro has been a very good fifth starter since his callup...and Saarloos has been quite good since his recall from AAA. Astacio wouldn't have been THAT much of an upgrade and certainly not worth his price tag.

I don't want that guy on my team...EVER. He is a horrible clubhouse guy and has demonstrated no understanding of a team mentality. You may disagree...but that's my feeling.

I'd prefer to see Viz get more playing time. But I must point out that while Blum's stats aren't going to blow you away that he has come up big in the clutch.

He would have if he was as terrible an owner and as cheap as kidrock8 says he is. In any event...their big contracts take up a lot of the payroll.

Even I'll bash him if he lets Miller, Oswalt or Saarloos walk away.

 

Excellent points by all.

Before I continue, I want to say that I don't have a clue as to what happened concerning the labor agreement after the non-strike, mainly because I just couldn't give a flip about baseball. It got rather tiring learning the new faces (save Bagwell and Biggio) every damn year anyway.

Refman:
So what will you say when Oswalt and Berkman's respective contracts are up and we can't/won't pay them what they're worth and they bolt to where the money is? Do you honestly think Lance would be an Astro if he was playing this well a year or two ago?

I can' hear them both now:
"Golly-gee guys, I love it here in Houston, and I'd love to stay an Astro, but ******* look at that cash the Yankees/Mets/Dodgers are waving my way. Uhh, what was I talking about? Go Yankees!"

Hell, I can't say I'd blame them.

Our farm system is truly one of the best there is, but our continued reliance on new talent doesn't do a damn thing for what is perhaps the single most important aspect of a team....you know it, you love it, say it with me now: Chemistry.

And Refman really, c'mon....Randy Johnson? A bold move it was for a truly great pitcher, but Drayton paying him for half a season and making a half-hearted attempt to keep him in town does NOT impress me. Same goes with Astacio. And as for Vinny Castilla, all anyone could talk about was how "Houston gave him another shot this" and "the resurgence of Vinny that." I don't know his stats or anything, but I sure remember seeing him on the highlight reels during the evening news. "Oops, sorry Vinny. Yup, you've done very well here, time to move on!" More talent in and out of the revolving door that is the Houston Astros.

And for the record, no one in this thread said anything about Giambi. My main beef is that we'll get Great Player X from our farm system, then we'll find Free Agent Y at the tail end of a fairly cheap contract, and then give them a nice wave out of town when their contracts are up as we watch them go for more money.

And personally, I'm sick and damn tired of it.

 

Just a couple of years ago many were asking the same questions about Biggio and Bagwell. The fact is that Drayton will give a sick contract to keep the guys perceived as the cornerstones of the franchise. It isn't how much you spend it is spending what you do wisely.

Sorry to hear it. The situation was this: RANDY JOHNSON MADE IT CLEAR BEFORE THE SEASON ENDED THAT HE WAS GOING TO PHOENIX!!!! Drayton made a last ditch effort to keep him and it failed.

Then you probably shouldn't talk about it. Look at what he's done this year for the Braves...SQUAT!!!! He's been an enormous disappointment in Atlanta.

If you can find a way to DOUBLE the Astros revenues then they'll have a Yankees type payroll. I'm sure they are open to suggestions.

I'm not saying there isn't reason to be frustrated. I AM saying that there are legitimate business reasons why things are the way they are. Anybody who thinks Drayton is such a bad owner OBVIOUSLY didn't pay attention in the early to mid 1980s when the team was in receivership and the credit unions operated the team. I don't want to see that happen again...so maybe living within our means is the prudent thing to do until there is more economic equity amongst the teams.

 

Just thought I would make some comments that Refman didn't cover.

Damon would have been nice, but like Refman noted, we already had a logjam in the OF. Plus, many thought at the beginning of the season that the guys we had could handle the OF, defensively. Berkman wasn't a spectacular CFer, but he managed just fine. Also, before this season, Damon was coming off his worst season of his career. Hindsight is 20/20, and many wish they had tried harder to sign him, but I don't know how many people could have been certain then that he would return to form like he has (and even then, his numbers are not outstanding).

Mlicki ended last season quite well, and capped it with an excellent performance in the playoffs. With the salary he was making, it was doubtful they could trade him, and I think he deserved a chance to prove he could still pitch. He did prove it too, with his first half performance (which was excellent). Sure, he tailed off, but then, he was dropped from the rotation, wasn't he? I would say we got as much as humanly possible out of him. Reynolds was unfortunate, but I don't think we needed to go out and get another veteran starting pitcher when we already had so many young ones. At the start of the season, we had Reynolds, Mlicki, Oswalt, Miller, Hernandez and Redding. At the time, it was believed that all 6 of those guys could be good starters right then...so there was little sense in trading possible building blocks of the future to get another starter that may or may not have helped us greatly. As for Astacio, he was coming off very serious surgery, and his future was very much in doubt. He surprised a LOT of people with his early season performance...but he has tailed off somewhat towards the end of the season, probably because of the strain it has put on his arm after the surgery. Few thought he was going to be worth the money the Mets paid him...so again, hindsight is 20/20.

I have yet to see anybody post any evidence to make me think that any of the Astros moves this last offseason were done strictly to save money rather than to put the best winning team out on the field now and in the future. It's a copout to yell, "cheapskate!" at Drayton when things don't go our way in the postseason. When I look at things objectively, there is not a great deal of decisions that I have disagreed with, and a few of the ones I did disagree with turned out better than I had hoped, showing why it's guys like Hunsicker being paid to do what they do and not me.

Edit: It seems Refman has done a much better job of making these points than I. Thanks, Refman.