Since we haven't had any discussions on the homeless in a while... What do you think about the proposed city ordinance? It looks like it has some good parts -- but others that are strange, like it being OK to sleep on the sidewalk at night. Thoughts? http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/metropolitan/829190 Feb. 21, 2001, 9:52AM -- 'Civility' proposal targets downtown panhandlers By MATT SCHWARTZ -- Copyright 2001 Houston Chronicle Panhandling at automated teller machines, parking meters and gasoline pumps would be prohibited under a so-called civility ordinance headed to City Council. The proposal -- a variation of a plan first introduced by Police Chief C.O. Bradford two years ago -- also includes a ban on rummaging through or removing material from garbage bags and containers, and would bar people from sitting or sleeping on downtown sidewalks from 7 a.m. to 11 p.m. The council's Committee on Regulatory Affairs voted Tuesday to send the proposal to the full council without a recommendation. When Mayor Lee Brown will put the measure on the council agenda is unknown. He said Tuesday that he supports the proposal as a tool for police. The measure is likely to face some tinkering before a final vote, with some council members supporting the panhandling restrictions but opposing the other prohibitions. "I think it has some good parts and some bad parts," said Councilman Chris Bell, a longtime advocate on homelessness issues. "I just think we need to take a reasonable approach toward dealing with what is going to continue to be a reality in our society, and that is homelessness. I think our time would be better spent concentrating on ways to further eradicate homelessness in our society instead of working so hard to take away places where they can sit. "I think people have a right to feel safe when they're parking their car or getting money out of an automated teller, so I don't have a problem with those types of measures," he continued. "But when you start, basically, creating laws that are just going to push homeless people from one section of the city into different sections of the city, I don't see that as being very productive." Councilman John Castillo said he and his colleagues have heard of numerous complaints about street people blocking sidewalks and sleeping in doorways. But he said he expected the full council to review the proposal line by line. "Obviously, there's a need for some kind of regulation," Castillo said. "I think we need to craft it narrowly so we don't criminalize innocent behavior. For example, a person having a dizzy spell, so he decides to sit down. There's no bench, so he sits on the sidewalk. Is that criminal? I don't think so. It's going to be difficult to do it, but I think we ought to do it in a way that takes care of the most egregious problems." Councilman Gabriel Vasquez said he supported the proposal, but wants more rationale for the ban on digging through trash containers. "It's hard to accept that you're going to take away potentially, someone's livelihood or someone's ability to eat in that manner," he said. "I struggle with that. At the same time, I recognize there's a problem. So I want some more time to think that through and to get the legal implications and the social implications as well." Pam Williford, executive director of the Coalition for the Homeless of Houston/Harris County, said the group opposes any so-called civility ordinances. "Number one, there already are laws on the books that address all of these things," she said. "If there is a reason they aren't being enforced, they need to look at that." Williford said the panhandling provisions sound like a cleanup effort for downtown. "That's when you're targeting people because of how they look," Williford said. "And the lying down issue between 7 a.m. and 11 p.m. Does that mean that we don't care about people after 11 p.m.?" She also decried the provision against digging through trash containers, pointing out that some people collect aluminum cans to be redeemed for cash. But another local agency that works with the homeless supports the proposed ordinance. "I do because of the dignity of the individual," said Randall Tabor, president and chief executive officer of the Star of Hope shelters. "There's no reason for a person to be going through the trash for food. I think it is going to help the individuals to get into facilities." Tabor said he has visited Orlando, which has similar ordinances and said they appear to work. "As far as Hope is concerned, whatever the city passes, we will work with them to help comply with the regulations. And we will help the clientele comply. We'll provide the shelter that's necessary if that's a law that's passed." Proponents say the goal of the ordinance would be to direct street people into shelters and agencies to get assistance. Bradford has said arresting or ticketing offenders would be a last resort. Critics of the proposals point out that laws already exist to address some of the behaviors targeted in the measure, including loitering and harassment. The city already has an ordinance banning aggressive panhandling. This latest proposal would create no-solicitation zones within eight feet of ATMs, parking meters, pay telephones, gas pumps and transit facilities -- places people are likely to be handling money. "The testimony we got from the public was that each one of these areas that we're adding are areas where the public feels there should be no panhandling," said Councilman Rob Todd, referring to public hearings scheduled in response to concern over potential legal challenges to the initial proposal. "I don't think there are a lot of people who would try to argue that you should be allowed to panhandle around an ATM machine. That's just common sense," said Todd, the chief architect behind the proposal. He added that, if passed, the new ordinance could help with enforcement of the existing panhandling rules by allowing police officers to act as complaining witnesses, rather than having to rely on members of the public to complain. He also dismissed concerns that the prohibitions against sitting or lying on downtown sidewalks could ensnare people engaged in innocent behavior. "If you are downtown at a parade or on a park bench or at a public event or something of that nature, this ordinance does not even apply to you," he said. "This is directed at people who are camping out on sidewalks." ------------------ Stay Cool...
Why don't they drop the pretenses and just put the homeless in jail? ------------------ RealGM Rockets Draft Obligations Summary Gafford Art Artisan
I believe the Supreme Court has already ruled that it's legal to rummage through garbage bags or cans and remove things from them (as long as the garbage cans are not secured behind a fence or something). I disagree with everything in the law. I don't think you make people safer by making it illegal to panhandle near an ATM, gas pump or parking meter. The person is panhandling, not robbing you. If he's robbing you, then he's already breaking the law. Any actual threat to a person's safety is already covered under current laws. Panhandling in and of itself is not a threat to anyone's safety (it may be annoying, but it's not a threat to safety. When it becomes a threat to safety, the person has broken an existing law). And I don't see what the sidewalks thing accomplishes, personally. ------------------ Houston Sports Board The Anti-Bud Adams Page
I agree with JuanValdez. Just put'em in jail. I've given a $20 spot to a panhandler once, but never again. Here's why: Last night after watching the Mavs-Kings game at a friend's apartment, I'm driving home around midnight, down 59 South. I exit Westpark, and the light turns red. As I'm slowing down to stop at the red light in the left turn lane, a f*ckin homeless piece of sh*t (that's how I feel about them now) comes up to my windshield and starts wiping it down, staring me right in the face through the windshield. All the while I'm trying to wave him off, trying to convey "No, I don't want this done," but he persists, saying "Food" or "I need food" or some total bullsh*t to that effect. So for some reason, without thinking, or maybe thinking that I need to try anything to get him off, I try to fool him and I start pointing to the light as if to say "watch out, the light's turned green, so get out of the way I'm about to drive off" even though the light was actually still red. Then the dude, still on my windshield, practically on my hood, starts commanding "Hey, look here," pointing to his eyes. "Look me in the eyes." But he sees my pointing to the lights, and apparently he didn't appreciate me trying to fool him. So then this comes out of his hole: "I'm f*ckin hungry here, I need food and you're playing f*ckin games?" and he became aggressive, as if I'm now at fault. Can you believe that sh*t!? He then starts hitting on my window, not really trying to break it, but trying to bully me since he's now angry, saying "huh? what's up?" hitting on my window. He keeps talking, and by now he's off my hood and standing near the side of the car. Looking at me through the driver's side window, he complains, "I'm f*ckin hungry and you're playin games?" as if I give a f*ck. He was a skinny, disheveled white guy with long hair, I think he had long facial hair, and after he sees I'm not white, he says condescendingly, catch this, "This is my country, man. I want food! You ugly...." (I couldn't make out what racial epithet he used). I can hear him through the closed window the whole time since he's yelling. Then he paces back and forth, staring me down, visibly pissed off, and thankfully the stupid light finally turns green and I drive off, bracing myself thinking he's gonna strike a blow to my car as I drive off, though luckily he doesn't. So I go home half scared, half pissed off, totally offended, wanting blood. In other words, it was ON! I was f*ckin flustered. Eventually I slept it off. I think this is called aggressive panhandling. In my opinion, and as just illustrated, it takes only a split second for "normal" panhandling to become aggressive panhandling, and downright assault. I'm glad I didn't have a weapon, or I might be in big trouble right now for using it on his sorry ass. Throw all the bastards in jail. By the way, has anyone else seen or think they've seen the homeless piece of trash I'm talking about?
I agree with JuanValdez. Just put'em in jail. I've given a $20 spot to a panhandler once, but never again. moomoo, just because that one dumbass was rude, don't take it out on other homeless people. Some of these people really do appreciate the help. I've given to people on streets and actually had short, friendly conversations with them (until the light turned). They have been really appreciative and polite. Sure, they could be faking to get money, but this was after I gave them the money, so I'll take my chances. Of course, there are also the asses like the one you ran into, but I would suggest just not donating to the rude / assinine ones. Some really just don't know where to start. Can't get money without a job. Can't get a job without a home and some money.
Doesn't Austin have a 'no camping' law that forbids homeless folks to sleep on sidewalks, under bridges, etc? That's what we need in Houston...
hey moomoo, there is an 8' law, i think, on the books in Houston, where a homeless person can't come within 8 feet of you or your vehicle... I would've just called the police, after the fact, told the dispatcher what and where the incident occurred and left it at that. The Houston non-emergency police number is 713.222.3131 and you can call that number anytime for any type of non emergency disturbance.... I use it all the time on the idiots in my 'hood that insist on bumping their stereos while their cars are parked and they are inside their house! I report a noise disturbance with either the exact or the 'hundred' block and let the police deal with them... you can do the same for the type of situation you incurred...
Your attitude toward the homeless is deeply troubling to me. Yes, this particular person crossed the line with you, but in light of your callous attitude toward him, I can't honestly say it was surprising. He is a human being with no home, no job, no food and, probably, no place to turn. So often we want to pretend homeless aren't even there. We ignore them, or worse, get angry with them for not trying harder. All in an attempt to stop ourselves from having to view them as people who are not so different from us. Like Major, I've spoken to some panhandlers as well. The things they edure on the streets is awful. Some are cursed at or spit on. One gentleman had bottles thrown at him. All for the crime of being poor? I give as much as I can to everyone I can. What may have bought a Subway sandwich for me could come down to life and death for them.
I really feel for the homeless and can't even phathom how one would get in that situation in life, BUT If I had a dollar for everytime a homeless person asked me for change at the gas pump I would indeed have over a hundred dollars in MY pocket! It happened 3 days ago and its just freakin annoying! One lady bum was so desperate as to ask for money while I was ordering freakin' tacos in the drive-thru line!!!! WTF!!! I was so rude I told her to just let me order my F$%^&*# tacos and get the F%$#& away. Then she goes, "gah, I just needed money for the bus" , yeah whatever... Or the time I went to the corner store to get a sixpack and some BBQ supplies and walking out a bum asks me for change. I really had no change and told him to which he replies to me holding a sixpack of Heinekin and picnic supplies, "Oh really, whats really goin' on?!" Maaaaaaan, F-U! I personally have no answer to this situation and the homeless but it sure does get me pissed when they expect it, or are suprised when you get agitated because they are the dozenth bum to ask you for change this week. BTW: I work for a living, always have.
Most of these bums choose to live this way. I do not feel sorry for them one bit. I agree with panhandeling outside ATM's and parking meters should be against the law. As for sitting on the sidewalk, thats pushing it a little to far. Perhaps it should be one of those "don't piss me off laws" where they are not really enforced unless you piss a cop off. Most of them feel you owe them something. If you ask them a question, they expect money in return.
You certainly are entitled to your opinion, but it always surprises me when Christians respond this way. Some of the most successful homeless support campaigns are run by Christian churches and Jesus, himself, gave without thought or concern to the dregs of society during his lifetime. I never understood having this type of attitude when your own religion and the founder of your spiritual concept commands you do the opposite. There is a reason the term "Christian Charity" exists. I was raised as a Christian and taught that you do what is necessary to help your fellow human irregardless of what your preconcieved notions of that person may be. He/she is another human that needs help. That is all that is required.
I work at this grocery store, and homeless people come in on their bikes with a -nameless store- hand basket tied to their bike. This one guy always comes in every so few days and buys two 40 oz malt liqours and then demands me to put them in two seperate paper bags. He tells me it keeps them cold longer. How about he just buys one at a time. btw, isn't it illegal to drink in public? This other homless guy that coms to my -nameless store-, he buys batteries, and beer. I almost ran him over one time on 290. It was evening time, this was like last year in the fall. Also, on 290 and Fairbanks N Houson, some homeless guy just went up to my truck, and started washing the windsheild. I told him no, but he kept going. I Spotted him a buck. Next time, I am going to say no, and you aren't getting ****, so don't bother finishing.
very well said, Jeff. i'm troubled by these opinions. they're entitled to them...but i'm troubled by them
Thans for the number, rockHEAD. I'll call them if it happens again, since I drive by that location regularly. Major, it's not as much about me giving them mooney or not giving them money as it is him threatening me and compromising my safety. If he decides to physically do something to me, what the hell can I do? He has nothing to lose. On the other hand, if were to retalliate (could it be considered self-defense?), I'm sure I'd be in trouble with the law. If he were to force the issue even more than he did, it's not a level playing field; my hands are tied (I have a job, a life, etc. that I certainly woild not want to risk losing for assaulting a homeless person), and his are not. To him, what's one night in jail? He's got nothing to lose by jacking me up. By the way Jeff, I am Catholic, and Catholics are encouraged to help homeless because that homeless person "is" Jesus. You know, something along the lines of what Jesus said: "When you helped the poorest of the poor, you helped me" etc. I used to think that way about panhandlers until I was hit with a reality check.
Is there some sort of new law that says that if you're attacked physically by a homeless person, you're not allowed to defend yourself? Explain to me how a homeless person would only get a night in jail for assaulting you, yet you would lose your job and life if you defended yourself. Get over it and be happy you're not in their situation.
That is great advice. Moo moo, you probably should tell RM95 everything else you dislike or find unpleasant so he can tell you how you should feel about it. I'm sure there are other things besides being threatened by a homeless person that you should probably just "get over".
