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House Democrat calls for immediate troop withdrawal

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by gifford1967, Nov 17, 2005.

  1. gifford1967

    gifford1967 Member
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    House Democrat calls for immediate troop withdrawal
    Vietnam vet says the Iraq war is a flawed policy wrapped in illusion

    WASHINGTON (AP) -- An influential House Democrat who voted for the Iraq war called Thursday for the immediate withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraq, another sign of growing unease in Congress about the conflict.

    "This is the immediate redeployment of American forces because they have become the target," said Rep. John Murtha, D-Pennsylvania, one of Congress' most hawkish Democrats. At times during his remarks to reporters, the decorated Vietnam War veteran and former Marine was choking back tears.

    "It is time for a change in direction. Our military is suffering, the future of our country is at risk. We cannot continue on the present course. It is evident that continued military action in Iraq is not in the best interests of the United States of America, the Iraqi people or the Persian Gulf region," Murtha said.

    Murtha, the top Democrat on the House Appropriations defense subcommittee, has earned bipartisan respect for his grasp of military issues over three decades in Congress.

    He said announcing a U.S. withdrawal would provide the Iraqi government with an added incentive to have their own security forces take control of the conflict.

    Murtha is a close adviser to House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, D-California. For months, Pelosi has pushed for the Bush administration to outline an exit strategy, although she has stopped short of calling for an immediate troop pullout.

    Some Senate Democrats have called for immediate or phased withdrawal.

    Murtha's comments came just two days after the Senate voted to approve a statement that 2006 "should be a period of significant transition to full Iraqi sovereignty" to create the conditions for the phased withdrawal of U.S. forces.

    Murtha voted to give the president authority to use force against Saddam Hussein in 2002. In recent months, the top Democrat on the House Appropriations Committee defense panel has grown increasingly troubled with the direction of the war and with the Bush administration's handling of it, particularly following reports of secret CIA prisons in Eastern Europe.

    "The war in Iraq is not going as advertised. It is a flawed policy wrapped in illusion," Murtha said.


    Find this article at:
    http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/11/17/murtha.iraq.ap




    Murtha in Full
    Posted by jesselee
    Thursday, November 17, 2005 at 12:58 PM

    Democratic Congressman John Murtha gave a press conference today introducing his resolution for redeployment of American troops in Iraq. Below is a transcript of his remarks and the text of the resolution itself.

    Statement:

    "The war in Iraq is not going as advertised. It is a flawed policy wrapped in illusion. The American public is way ahead of us. The United States and coalition troops have done all they can in Iraq, but it is time for a change in direction. Our military is suffering. The future of our country is at risk. We cannot continue on the present course. It is evident that continued military action is not in the best interests of the United States of America, the Iraqi people or the Persian Gulf Region.
    "General Casey said in a September 2005 hearing, "the perception of occupation in Iraq is a major driving force behind the insurgency." General Abizaid said on the same date, "Reducing the size and visibility of the coalition forces in Iraq is part of our counterinsurgency strategy."

    "For 2 ½ years, I have been concerned about the U.S. policy and the plan in Iraq. I have addressed my concerns with the Administration and the Pentagon and have spoken out in public about my concerns. The main reason for going to war has been discredited. A few days before the start of the war I was in Kuwait - the military drew a red line around Baghdad and said when U.S. forces cross that line they will be attacked by the Iraqis with Weapons of Mass Destruction - but the US forces said they were prepared. They had well trained forces with the appropriate protective gear.

    "We spend more money on Intelligence that all the countries in the world together, and more on Intelligence than most countries GDP. But the intelligence concerning Iraq was wrong. It is not a world intelligence failure. It is a U.S. intelligence failure and the way that intelligence was misused.

    "I have been visiting our wounded troops at Bethesda and Walter Reed hospitals almost every week since the beginning of the War. And what demoralizes them is going to war with not enough troops and equipment to make the transition to peace; the devastation caused by IEDs; being deployed to Iraq when their homes have been ravaged by hurricanes; being on their second or third deployment and leaving their families behind without a network of support.

    "The threat posed by terrorism is real, but we have other threats that cannot be ignored. We must be prepared to face all threats. The future of our military is at risk. Our military and their families are stretched thin. Many say that the Army is broken. Some of our troops are on their third deployment. Recruitment is down, even as our military has lowered its standards. Defense budgets are being cut. Personnel costs are skyrocketing, particularly in health care. Choices will have to be made. We cannot allow promises we have made to our military families in terms of service benefits, in terms of their health care, to be negotiated away. Procurement programs that ensure our military dominance cannot be negotiated away. We must be prepared. The war in Iraq has caused huge shortfalls at our bases in the U.S.

    "Much of our ground transportation is worn out and in need of either serous overhaul or replacement. George Washington said, "To be prepared for war is one of the most effective means of preserving peace." We must rebuild out Army. Our deficit is growing out of control. The Director of the Congressional Budget Office recently admitted to being "terrified" about the budget deficit in the coming decades. This is the first prolonged war we have fought with three years of tax cuts, without full mobilization of American industry and without a draft. The burden of this war has not been shared equally; the military and their families are shouldering this burden.

    "Our military has been fighting a war in Iraq for over two and a half years. Our military has accomplished its mission and done its duty. Our military captured Saddam Hussein, and captured or killed his closest associates. But the war continues to intensify. Deaths and injuries are growing, with over 2,079 confirmed American deaths. Over 15,500 have been seriously injured and it is estimated that over 50,000 will suffer from battle fatigue. There have been reports of at least 30,000 Iraqi civilian deaths.

    "I just recently visited Anbar Province Iraq in order to assess the condition on the ground. Last May 2005, as part of the Emergency Supplemental Spending Bill, the House included to Moran Amendment, which was accepted in Conference, and which required the Secretary of Defense to submit quarterly reports to Congress in order to more accurately measure stability and security in Iraq. We have not received two reports. I am disturbed by the findings in key indicator areas. Oil production and energy production are below pre-war levels. Our reconstruction efforts have been crippled by security situation. Only $9 billion of the $18 billion appropriated for reconstruction has been spent. Unemployment remains at about 60 percent. Clean water is scarce. Only $500 million of the $2.2 billion appropriated for water projects have been spent. And most importantly, insurgent incidents have increased from about 150 per week to over 700 in the last year. Instead of attacks going down over time and with the addition of more troops, attacks have grown dramatically. Since the revelations at Abu Ghraib, American causalities have doubled. An annual State Department report in 2004 indicated a sharp increase in global terrorism.

    "I said over a year ago, and now the military and the Administration agrees, Iraq can not be won "militarily." I said two years ago, the key to progress in Iraq is to Iraqitize, Internationalize and Energize. I believe the same today. But I have concluded that the presence of U.S. troops in Iraq is impeding this progress.

    "Our troops have become the primary target of the insurgency. They are untied against U.S. forces and we have become a catalyst for violence. U.S. troops are the common enemy of the Sunnis, Saddamists and foreign jihadists. I believe with a U.S. troop redeployment, the Iraq security forces will be incentivized to take control. A poll recently conducted shows that over 80% of Iraqis are strongly opposed to the presence of coalition troops, about 45% of the Iraqi population believe attacks against American troops are justified. I believe we need to turn Iraq over to the Iraqis. I believe before the Iraqi elections, scheduled for mid December, the Iraqi people and the emerging government must be put on notice that the United States will immediately redeploy. All of Iraq must know that Iraq is free. Free from United Stated occupation. I believe this will send a signal to the Sunnis to join the political process for the good of a "free" Iraq.

    "My plan calls:


    To immediately redeploy U.S. troops consistent with the safety of U.S. forces.

    To create a quick reaction force in the region.

    To create an over-the-horizon presence of Marines.

    To diplomatically pursue security and stability in Iraq.

    "This war needs to be personalized. As I said before, I have visited with the severely wounded of this war. They are suffering.

    "Because we in Congress are charged with sending our sons and daughters into battle, it is our responsibility, our obligation, to speak out for them. That's why I am speaking out.

    "Our military has done everything that has been asked of them, the U.S. can not accomplish anything further in Iraq militarily. It is time to bring them home."


    http://www.dccc.org/stakeholder/archives/003914.html
     
  2. Baqui99

    Baqui99 Member

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    Wish guys like him spoke out BEFORE the war started, not now, when it's too late. Instead we had to endure crap like "I voted for the war before I voted against it."
     
  3. KingCheetah

    KingCheetah Atomic Playboy
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    Immediate withdrawal would be the worse thing we could do right now.
     
  4. Major

    Major Member

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    There was never a vote for or against war.
     
  5. Saint Louis

    Saint Louis Member

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    How so? Our troops are stretched to thin. The stress of deployment on our military men and women is taking its toll. My brother-in-law is headed back for his second tour in Iraq. Is this the new policy? A year in Iraq and then a year off for decades to come? Where does it end? The worse thing we could do was already done, invading Iraq in the first place. Iraq was the wrong place and the wrong time for a war.
     
  6. basso

    basso Member
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    this is almost as pathetic as Hagel's statement the other day. it's irresponsible, contrary to american interests, and ultimately endagers the troops. the best way to get the troops home is to win the damn war.
     
  7. Major

    Major Member

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    But that assumes there's a plan to win the war. If you don't believe the administration is capable of making the changes necessary (and really, what in the past 2 years suggests they are?), then your options are:

    1. continue stalemate
    2. withdraw

    The situation changes then. I agree with you that you have to try to win the thing, but a lot of people no longer believe Bush is capable of that.
     
  8. pirc1

    pirc1 Member

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    What if the war turns into a conflict that lasts for decades? Should US be involved for the next decade or more? I do not believe immidiate withdraw of all troops is the answer, but neither is this stay the course concept advocated by the administration.
     
  9. Saint Louis

    Saint Louis Member

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    Please define winning this damn war. What are the objectives? Who is the enemy? What will work in defeating this enemy? National armies are easy to defeat, but insurgencies are not.

    Remember how a band of revolutionaries defeated the British Empire in the 18th century? Or how about those little guys running around the southeast Asian jungles and rice paddies in the 20th century? We are basically trying to suppress and install an Iraqi government that fits the Bush-Cheney agenda. It was a myopic mistake to think this would succeed from the start.
     
  10. Bullard4Life

    Bullard4Life Member

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    Trautman: You send that many, don't forget one thing.
    Teasle: What?
    Trautman: A good supply of body bags.
     
  11. mc mark

    mc mark Member

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    While I too agree that we can't really pull out immediately, what Murtha is doing is forcing the issue upon the republicans and the administration. The debate needs to take place and the republicans seemed to be happy not discussing it. Now they have to. Now the democrats have to too! It also keeps the pressure on the administration.

    Well I say good for him!
     
  12. No Worries

    No Worries Member

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    It is not the damn war we need to win, it is the peace.
     
  13. RocketMan Tex

    RocketMan Tex Member

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    If the war is un-winnable, what's next?
     
  14. gifford1967

    gifford1967 Member
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    Though I adamantly opposed the invasion of Iraq, there was a period after the invasion when I thought it would be a mistake to pull out quickly. I thought the instability and bloodshed that would follow our withdrawal would outweigh the costs of the occupation, to our country and the Iraqis. I underestimated the incompetence of the Bush Administration. They have bungled the occupation so badly I no longer believe (and haven't for sometime) that the odds for reasonable success in Iraq are high enough to justify the costs in American blood and treasure.

    I believe that if we were to withdraw in the near term there would quickly follow a bloody civil war, but if we stay there will be a drawn out and bloody civil war. In either case there will be a bloody civil war.


    I think the question that opponents of the invasion, but reluctant supporters of the occupation, need to ask is this- Is your faith in the Bush Administration's ability to bring this war to a successful conclusion strong enough to warrant the inevitable cost of thousands more American soldier's lives and billions more dollars?
     
    #14 gifford1967, Nov 17, 2005
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2005
  15. thegary

    thegary Member

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    this war will not be won on faith. this war appears to be unwinnable given the current course. what do you hawks suggest we do to turn the tide? oh, almost forgot, we should just bite our tongues and whistle dixie. yeee haw, and may god continue to bless america, amen.
     
  16. Batman Jones

    Batman Jones Member

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    Clap louder. Commie.
     
  17. mc mark

    mc mark Member

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    Another thought...

    While the republicans will most assuredly call for some type of troop drawdown before next year's mid-terms in order to bump their poll numbers, Murtha's move might be seen as the dems being able to wrest the issue from them. It puts the dems out in front of the issue of bringing the troops home.

    [edit] can you imagine the headlines?

    "Republicans Acknolwedge Mistake; Begin Troop Withdrawl".
     
    #17 mc mark, Nov 17, 2005
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2005
  18. HayesStreet

    HayesStreet Member

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    If you believe public dissent can force a change, why not dissent to fix the parts of the policy that are not working instead of immediate withdraw. If you don't believe the Bush administration can create a workable policy on their own (and there is ample reason to believe this), then why not advocate a workable plan. Get the troop numbers needed, get them the equipment they need, emphasize the buildup of Iraqi military and security units, funnel more money into veterans services, do what is possible to get more internationalization of deployments (if that means concessions on contracts then by all means do so) and hand whatever possible over to the Iraqis. As for money, if dissent can force change then advocate repealing the tax cuts.
     
  19. updawg

    updawg Member

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    We can't pull out now. that would be a terrible move both for the ME and Americas reputation and psyche.
    This is what happens with bad planning and bad exit strategies.
    I agree with a lot of below

     
  20. thegary

    thegary Member

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    Darkness at the break of noon
    Shadows even the silver spoon
    The handmade blade, the child's balloon
    Eclipses both the sun and moon
    To understand you know too soon
    There is no sense in trying.

    Pointed threats, they bluff with scorn
    Suicide remarks are torn
    From the fools gold mouthpiece
    The hollow horn plays wasted words
    Proved to warn
    That he not busy being born
    Is busy dying.

    Temptation's page flies out the door
    You follow, find yourself at war
    Watch waterfalls of pity roar
    You feel to moan but unlike before
    You discover
    That you'd just be
    One more person crying.

    So don't fear if you hear
    A foreign sound to you ear
    It's alright, Ma, I'm only sighing.

    As some warn victory, some downfall
    Private reasons great or small
    Can be seen in the eyes of those that call
    To make all that should be killed to crawl
    While others say don't hate nothing at all
    Except hatred.

    Disillusioned words like bullets bark
    As human gods aim for their marks
    Made everything from toy guns that sparks
    To flesh-colored Christs that glow in the dark
    It's easy to see without looking too far
    That not much
    Is really sacred.

    While preachers preach of evil fates
    Teachers teach that knowledge waits
    Can lead to hundred-dollar plates
    Goodness hides behind its gates
    But even the President of the United States
    Sometimes must have
    To stand naked.

    An' though the rules of the road have been lodged
    It's only people's games that you got to dodge
    And it's alright, Ma, I can make it.

    Advertising signs that con you
    Into thinking you're the one
    That can do what's never been done
    That can win what's never been won
    Meantime life outside goes on
    All around you.

    You loose yourself, you reappear
    You suddenly find you got nothing to fear
    Alone you stand without nobody near
    When a trembling distant voice, unclear
    Startles your sleeping ears to hear
    That somebody thinks
    They really found you.

    A question in your nerves is lit
    Yet you know there is no answer fit to satisfy
    Insure you not to quit
    To keep it in your mind and not forget
    That it is not he or she or them or it
    That you belong to.

    Although the masters make the rules
    For the wise men and the fools
    I got nothing, Ma, to live up to.

    For them that must obey authority
    That they do not respect in any degree
    Who despite their jobs, their destinies
    Speak jealously of them that are free
    Cultivate their flowers to be
    Nothing more than something
    They invest in.

    While some on principles baptized
    To strict party platforms ties
    Social clubs in drag disguise
    Outsiders they can freely criticize
    Tell nothing except who to idolize
    And then say God Bless him.

    While one who sings with his tongue on fire
    Gargles in the rat race choir
    Bent out of shape from society's pliers
    Cares not to come up any higher
    But rather get you down in the hole
    That he's in.

    But I mean no harm nor put fault
    On anyone that lives in a vault
    But it's alright, Ma, if I can't please him.

    Old lady judges, watch people in pairs
    Limited in sex, they dare
    To push fake morals, insult and stare
    While money doesn't talk, it swears
    Obscenity, who really cares
    Propaganda, all is phony.

    While them that defend what they cannot see
    With a killer's pride, security
    It blows the minds most bitterly
    For them that think death's honesty
    Won't fall upon them naturally
    Life sometimes
    Must get lonely.

    My eyes collide head-on with stuffed graveyards
    False gods, I scuff
    At pettiness which plays so rough
    Walk upside-down inside handcuffs
    Kick my legs to crash it off
    Say okay, I have had enough
    What else can you show me ?

    And if my thought-dreams could been seen
    They'd probably put my head in a guillotine
    But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only.
     

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