I'm going to pull an argument out of Pole's thread, since that thread is mixed with Clutch's trade talks, RealGM stuff, and other tangential comments. It is TheFreak's argument, best summarized by DoD. Personally, I think this is a pretty cool debate. Great to see DoD come in and simplify it for TheFreak. I think I always understood what the TheFreak was stating, as well. And I think others have to. I'm here to defend the rabid fan. And there is an argument on another plane that is immune from TheFreak's hypocritical dichotomy. What we haven't heard is the argument about *winning*, which I believe is fundamentally at the heart of the homer's stance. This sport is a game. We must win! The organization must not be damaged. Otherwise, our chances of falling back down to the cellar and becoming a bad organization increases. It is great to see other team's chemistry faulter so we can steal their stars. You want to win the game of "Classy Organization" label. It is not hypocritical to cheer for discontent on other teams, yet not want that to happen to your team. To me, and to the Homer, calling that hypocritical is like saying you should cheer for all home runs (both yours and the opponents, like everyone should win). No! That is not the case! There is nothing hypocritical about playing the Classy Organization game and wanting to win. Keeping your good players and stealing others is about winning. You have a better chance of doing that if you are one of the organizations that the players consider to be well run. If you think that Pippen and Dream are doing damage to that image, you can say so without letting TheFreak call you hypocritical for accepting Francis with open arms. We want other teams to fail. This is a game. Reprimand Dream, bench him, call him a jerk player even, boo him, whatever you want. If you think he is hurting your organization from winning, nothing you do is hypocritical. This IS A GAME. When you take away the game, and talk about the individual person (or throw tomatoes at him), then your words can be hypocritical. The man still has principles. No need to trash those. Here's to the Rabid fans. Don't ever let the rationalists make you question our hoping that Vancouver tosses us another gimme! [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited February 01, 2001).]
How am I arguing the wrong argument when you're stirring both sides of the pot??? ------------------ I keep plugging away, but I just can't get a 3 way to work on realwife.com
Count me in as a Rabid Rocket Fan (RRF). As an RRF, anything that hurts the Rockets is bad, and anything that helps the Rockets is good (I hope that is not too complicated for some of you.) I admire Hakeem as much as anyone, but I do it because of what he did for MY Rockets. If he should leave, I will cheer for him, unless he is playing the Rockets, at which time he becomes just another opponent. ------------------ Behad Sergeant at Arms of the Clutch BBS Asking the question: What is more dangerous, an AK-47 or a scooter?
what are you talking about, achebe? Hakeem has damaged our trade talks, and is attempting to tarnish our image as a Classy Organization where players want to play and retire. You can cheer for/against that as well as any other part of the game...damn straight. Dissing the individual does not necessarily have anything whatsoever to do with what many of us are saying. [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited February 01, 2001).]
Also HP: I bet you lost a lot of the young'uns with that Gene Elston reference! Where does Lowell Paas (sp?) fit into this? ------------------ Behad Sergeant at Arms of the Clutch BBS Asking the question: What is more dangerous, an AK-47 or a scooter?
Hey Behad, That reference is copywritten by DoD. Please don't give me credit, or I could get into trouble
Hp, delivering the goods as usual. Since Hp has defendend the rabid fan, or homer, let me try and see this from a different point of view. I´m not judging wheter Hakeem´s b****ing is to our benefit or not, as a team or organization. Instead, I´m judging Hakeem as a human being. That analysis isn´t the product of either a rationalist or a homer. It´s the product of someone who had a belief and admiration for Hakeem Olajuwon the man, not the basketball player. It is that image that has been shattered and which can never be brought back. I though Hakeem Olajuwon was a classy, honorable man. Someone who deserved looking up to, something who happens to be getting scarcer with each passing day in a world that happens to be ruled by the almighty dollar like pro sports are these days. The Freak and others have attempted to justify Hakeem´s actions by comparing them to those of both Francis and Pippen. I have time and again bashed these comparisons as they are pure nonsense. Hakeem always has earned the respect of everyone of his fans in the past decade not because of his basketball prowess, which truly was at a time unmatched, but because of the special human being he was. He inspired trust and admiration. Someone i would borrow the keys of my car or even house to, without any fears whatsoever. By being the human being he was (or seemed to be) Hakeem Olajuwon actually did what select few athletes manage to do: he actually surpassed the boundaries of sports to become a true icon. He became synonimous with the city of Houston and is (or was) widely regarded by his fans as much more than a basketball player. He has ties with the city of Houston and with his fans that in now way can be compared with Francis quick exit out of Vancouver, or Pippen´s demand to get out. Francis made it clear from the beginning that he didn´t want to be drafted by the grizzles. With Pippen, we knew we were getting a punk who refused to enter in the last seconds of a game because the play wasn´t for him. We knew it. No expectations were shattered. But you Hakeem... you earned a place in our hearts and a respect from ownership that even Jordan never got. And Jordan chose to retire instead of seeing his team broken up and change teams. Barkley could have played for the Lakers last season and got his ring. In his last chance,and still, loyalty spoke louder. But you Dream, the Dream I cheered so loudly for the last few years, you who I thought had earned my everlasting respect... your treason hurts the most. It hurts because you meant so much. And you are destroying that for what? A chance to win? You didn´t care for wins the past few years, when we were contenders. Why does it mean so much for you? It isn´t about winning. It´s about pride. It´s about not deeming these kids worthy of deferring to. The Hakeem Olajuwon i knew no longer exists. where once was respect now there is disgust. I stand in judgement of the man. It is him that has failed me. Failed my faith in his character, his honor. Screw the rationalist. Screw the homer. I´m talking about heart here. For it is that heart that has been shattered by a man I now deem unworthy of my admiration. Begone from my sight Hakeem Olajuwon. I have no respect for who you revealed yourself to be. ------------------ President of the Official Welcoming Committee for Shareef Abdur-Rahim! [This message has been edited by Thanos (edited February 01, 2001).]
I have another theory, but I didn't think it warranted another thread. The old Hakeem (the one who won the Championships) was a good man. A warrior....yet one who was kind and just. This new guy is his evil twin. He killed the old Hakeem, and he's stealing the Rocket's 16 million bucks this year. And he's trying to ruin the Rockets and Rudy's good name. And he's trying to drive the fans apart....and bring the city to its knees. All because he didn't think his presidential vote got counted enough times.....back home in Miami. ------------------ stop posting my damn signature
save your disgust and hatred for people who truly deserve it (like John Ashcroft for example ). i wish hakeem well and if he can get us a good young player by dealing him then i thank him for it. ------------------
Camps again, huh? Heyp, I think you've presented a false dichotomy. You've got rationalists, who can trash Hakeem, Pippen and Francis for abandoning their team; and you've got the homers, who can trash Hakeem and Pippen for abandoning our team but cheer Francis for coming to us. What about people who still don't want to trash Hakeem? People who think it won't make a jot of difference to the success of the team or their own personal lives if Hakeem stays or goes? People who think that Hakeem is well within his rights to want to move on and bear him no grudge because of it? I and anyone who happens to share my opinion need a name. How about the indifferents? ------------------ RealGM Rockets Draft Obligations Summary Gafford Art Artisan
This is the part that bothers me. It is a game, like you say, to the fans. It's also the man's job and life. To personally attack someone because they inconvenienced you as a fan is just wrong in my eyes. It's not like he pulled a Sprewell. Just don't make it personal.
the "indifferents" lol Juan. Thanos, you are playing the Classy Player game. I don't think Dream cares about winning that game as much as many fans want to see him win it. He wants to be a Classy Person, and that is what fans can never take away from him. I don't know, maybe when I was much younger, I could actually "hate" a player. I just don't feel that anymore. Cheers to Dream, whatever he wants to do. I can even say that he deserves it. But! I can certainly want to win the Classy Organization game while considering the Classy Player game and Classy Fan game of less import. Dream: you are a ruthless jerk. I can see him smile at that comment. And I would smile back. And here is a boo for you, cheers! What Hakeem is doing is a game. If we can boo him and get him to apologize some more in public and say he has changed his mind and doesn't want to work for that dapper dan Rily, so Dallas will make the trade, why not...hehe! Let's WIN one for Rudy!!!!!!!!!!!
And Thanos, I think you might want to consider therapy. He's a ball player, man, chill out! It's not his fault he didn't live up to your god-like expectations. You didn't know what he was like as a person then any more than you do now. What, did you used to hang out together? Judging an athlete as a person by what gets said in public and things you have no first-hand knowledge of is a little weak, isn't it?
Hahahaha. That line about therapy will make sure i keep laughing my ass off for another couple of hours, at least. So, expecting a man to be true to his word and behave in a honorable manner qualifies as a god-like expectation? Your comments are laughable. As usual, you have no valid point to weaken my argument, and so chooses to resort to childish name-calling. Just like I was a moron for not getting the name of a Van Halen song, now i should seek therapy because i believed Hakeem was more than a money/pride seeking mongrel? You amuse me like few others. Keep it up. It really wonders me how people are so quick to point out what kind of bad example a guy who gives his ALL and plays through SEVERAL injuries like Iverson because of his rap songs and how much effect they can have, since he is a sort of role model, but are willing to justify the lack of honesty involved in the way Hakeem behaves. Who´s the hypocrite, i ask? And again, you FAIL blatantly see my point. I´´m not judging a basketball player. I´m judging a man, and a man´s character, is INDEED, and i hope you are not foolish enough to dispute that, measured by his ACTIONS! ------------------ President of the Official Welcoming Committee for Shareef Abdur-Rahim! [This message has been edited by Thanos (edited February 01, 2001).]
uhhhhh.... sure Thanos, perfect analogy. ------------------ I keep plugging away, but I just can't get a 3 way to work on realwife.com
I was thinking maybe the "Dreamers" CK ------------------ There is nothing more thrilling than using the RealGM trade checker for the 1 millionth time and finally having it tell you trade accepted!!!
You don´t get it Achebe? Demanding to be released and making comment´s like those seen in yesterday´s papers are actions of someone who has questionable character. I´m afraid i see that kind of attitude to be a helluva lot more dangerous for a role model to be associated with that recording a gangsta album. Just my two cents, as always. ------------------ President of the Official Welcoming Committee for Shareef Abdur-Rahim!
Hey Thanos, have you heard these Van Halen songs?: Might as Well Jump My Love is Rotten to the Core Panama-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh Blue-eyed Murder in a Size 5 Dress All I Need is a Beautiful Girl Baby Baby Won't you Jiggle it My Way You Got Me So I Don't Know What I'm Doin Maybe you could incorporate those into your signature?
And maybe you could develop some long delayed maturity and actually try to dispute my points instead of resorting to this foolishness. But i can´t blame you for being at loss for words and behaving like a spoiled brat can I? And i still find you entertaining as ever Freak. Keep up the good work. You do wonders as far as lightening up my spirit go. ------------------ President of the Official Welcoming Committee for Shareef Abdur-Rahim! [This message has been edited by Thanos (edited February 01, 2001).]
It's wrong to call Dream out because we don't know anything about him and only know what is said publically is weak, but it's ok to praise him and call him decent and honorable even though we don't know anything about him? We need to stop telling him to honor his contract and make him god-like, but it's ok to make him god-like and say he IS the Rockets and HE is the reason for Houston being on the map!? Contradictions, Contradictions! ------------------ Dream a deadly Dream. . . [This message has been edited by RocksMillenium (edited February 01, 2001).]
