I just figured this might be an interedting thread, and wanted to pull it out of the other thread. I knew that by naming Hitler as the person i would most like to meet there would be trouble. i almost went with the easier choice and picked Mr Kahn from Mongolia. I however picked Mr Hitler from germany via Austria. DREAMer i want you to know that the reason i might have over reacted to your attack on my choice is because it was an uneccesary attempt to try and make me look stupid. by doing that you put me on the defensive. so i defended vehemantly. I do agree that Hitler made many mistakes, but as the dictator of a successfull military nation, he is without a doubt a sucessfull military leader. this also makes him a formatable military mind. im sure i could have pointed out thatr his ability to move the people was beter than his ability to controll an army (by lightyears), but does it really sound good for me to name hitler as one of the best leaders of our times. No if i said that Hitler was a great propagandist and motivator than it might offend alot of people who would assume that i liked his social policies, not his ability to take over Europe. I would rather Miff you and Nomar for being inacurate about Hitlers true strength rather than face the rath of everyone on this board. Nomar, you call hitler the opposite of a military genius, however i think you are being a bit too harsh. think od allthe great conquerers of our past. Many if not all of them killed, or at least bannished their top generals if they disobeyed them. remember that the top general often became Cezar after the Coup D'ta. as far as Letting the British Army escape at Dunkirk is concerned. hindsight is 20/20. also there used to be honor amongst warriors. in the 40s it would have been concidered terrible if they mowed down retreating men like the U.S. did at the end of the Gulf War. it is cowardly so hitler would have no part in it. as far as the great military leaders go, they all make mistakes. otherwise you would be speaking greek or Italian or Mongolian or French or German or Japanese. they all have their Perl harbour. also every great ruler was crazy as hell. alex the great, KOO KOO Napoleon, NUTZ every member of russian Royalty was absolutely bonkers so how do you expect hitler to make rash decisions. they were all crazy and did stupid things, but they were all genius. absolute crazy genius. this post should start a nice little discussion. but please remember i am not a supporter of the mans social programs. *PEACE ------------------ Hanta-Force Paintball http://www.hanta-force.com
Dude if this board can't handle a corny lesbian reference in a South Park joke, there was no way in hell they'd put up with that. ------------------ Five to one baby, one and five...no one here gets, out alive.
"thats what i said" (imagine a cartman voice here) ------------------ Hanta-Force Paintball http://www.hanta-force.com
I think the problem IS that people, somehow associate the word "genius" with "good", or "right" and overlook it's relation to INSANITY. that's my take on it. ------------------ C-son
I'm sure Hitler was a bright guy and had a very high IQ. I'm not a military expert, but I'm sure that he was a good leader. But, the fact that he was evil and persecuted the Jews tells me that Hitler "sucked." I don't care if this discussion doesn't involve his "social" programs, any man who can do those atrocities to so many people "sucked." Nothing will ever change my opinion of him. ------------------ "There are two players carrying the Rockets right now. Hakeem and Olajuwon." Isiah Thomas
I'm not going to rewrite what I've already said, so here's a copy/paste job. ------------------------- Hitler was one of the worst military minds. He was a great propagandist, and motivator, but he's the idiot who brought Russia into the war when he was winning, and didn't need to. Question: How many of his military advisors told him not to wage a multi-front war? Answer: All of them. Had he any true military knowledge or instincts Germany could've easily won that war. Also, his choice of Italy as the third member of the Axis powers was a bad military move. Sure is gave them a port in the Mediterranean, but Italy's war efforts were so poorly organized and their economic situation so bad off that they did more to drain German resources than to help Hitler attain any goals he may have been after. ------------------------ I merely had question with your reason (his military mind) for wanting to "hang out" with Hitler, not your desire to. Your overreaction to my reply does sorta make me wonder why you were so defensive, though. WWII is one of my favorite topics. I've read "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich", and I plan to eventually read "Mein Kampf". I didnt' say Hitler was a bad choice. I almost put Hitler as one of the people I'd want to hang out with, but I decided that if I were there and didn't do anything, then I'd be part of the problem. But, again that was my reason for not choosing him. ------------------ "I have a DREAM.........his name's Hakeem." DREAMer's Rocket Page [This message has been edited by DREAMer (edited November 28, 2000).]
Okay, but Hitler's generals didnt disobey him. Hitler fired his Generals in Russia, because they told him it was so cold, the tank's engines wouldnt work. hmmm. also, when a General could not advance in the field when ordered, he was fired. even if the division had over 90% casualties. hmmm. yes, Hitler obviously let the British go at Dunkirk because of military honor. NO!!! Was it military honor to BLITZKRIEG Poland. WAs it military honor to promise Chamberlain that he would quit after Chezklozavakia? Was it military honor to bomb civilian London.(THE BLITZ) Was it military honor to execute Jews. NO!!! As far as everyone making mistakes, Genghis Kahn, Charlemagne, and Bismarck never made mistakes. Bottom line, Hitler was not a military genius. Like Napolean before him, he failed when he disregarded art of war by Sun Tzu and invaded Russia. ------------------ The next time I have meat and mashed potatoes, I think I'll put a very large blob of potatoes on my plate with just a little piece of meat. And if someone asks me why i didn't get more meat, ill just say, "Oh, you mean this?" and pull out a big piece of meat from inside the blob of potatoes, where ive hidden it. Good magic trick, huh?
Nomar, are you mad? lying to another countries leader in not dishonorable in war(its how you win them historically). Blitzing poland is not dishonorable, shooting fleeing enemy in the back as they retreat IS. if the polish surrendered, and hitler continued to fight, than you would be right. his Blitz is part of that military genious. and FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THINGS HOLY, the holocost has nothing to do with the war. it was a tactic used to unsure national unity, and was only done after a land was conquered. it was effectively a peacetime policy. putting the holocost in your post makes you worse than the yellow journalists fighting for scraps in Florida. you my friend just lost all honor in this good spirited debate. *PEACE ------------------ Hanta-Force Paintball http://www.hanta-force.com
Voice of Reason, DREAMEr was not criticizing the fact that you want to meet Hitler because he is evil or morally incorrect. After all, wanting to meet a person is not about who he is and how “good” he is but rather (to me, anyway…not trying to spark another discussion) about what you can learn from that person. I’m sure DREAMer knows about the claims of MLK committing plagiarism to obtain his university degree or his unfaithfulness to his wife (I would actually like to hear more about this). I think he understands that you do because of his complicated character and ability to take almost an entire nation to the brink of moral destruction. My question is: Why did you have to copy and paste a miniature biography of his life? It’s not as if that gave us anything new. Heck, I bet most of us didn’t even read it. Wasteful and irritating for those reading the post, IMO. I read bits of it, and I don’t think there was anything that convinced me of his military genius. His father’s name was Alois? Oh, sorry. I’m sure DREAMer is writing his apology on the military genius matter right now. As far as his being a military genius, I tend to agree with DREAMer, except I don’t think you can go to the extent of calling him one of the worst military minds in our history. I have a personal theory (not sure if it’s well known or whatever through an author). I think that many of Hitler’s actions were not due to his ineptitude at the head of a military power, but rather because of his search and perhaps futile hope or even expectance that peace with his Arian brothers in Britain would be achieved. God knows he made several attempts to do this. If anyone has ever heard of the Spandau theories, Hitler is often called an accomplice of Rudolph Hess’ trip to England in 1941. He simply underestimated Churchill’s abilities (to convince the people in favor of a war against Germany) and the will of the British people. He also believed that he would have a chance to bring back the King who abdicated in 1936. It is known that he had Nazi tendencies and in fact repenting having given up on the English throne. Top British officials also believed they could not win the war (and they were probably right under the circumstances) and so Hitler felt a somewhat legitimate chance of achieving peace with that side. Nomar, I think a lot of your reasons for calling him inept at a military post can be explained by other factors. In general, though, I agree with the fact that his not so brilliant mind in this case was also to blame for some of Germany’s military failures. First of all, Hitler allowing the British escape at Dunkirk can be explained partly through what the Voice of Reason said, but also because of my thinking that Hitler felt peace with the British was yet still a very realistic possibility. His invading Russia was a work already in motion, and in my opinion unsuccessful only because of Germany’s need to drive too quickly through Russia (and so weaken supply lines), and the conditions at the time. Of course, this was all due to the dreaded Russian winter. Hitler actually planned the attack for March. May at the latest. The fact is that the plans for the attack were brought back by inefficient preparation which eventually forced it to be pushed back till June. So, it’s not as if Hitler knowingly planned the attack for June of 1941. While perhaps it was a mistake to go through with it eventually, I do not think that Hitler can be stamped as the guy who ‘planned’ this attack on Russia specifically for the winter. I agree with the fact that some of his general could have been placed in more efficient positions, but not with the idea of his firing them being idiotic because they did not agree with the Nazi regime. I believe Hitler had reason to fire some, as some were clearly looking to clear him from his spot as supreme dictator and the ordeal with Graff von Stauffenberg made him a bit paranoid (with reason). But yes, sometimes he was a bit rash when it came to the so-called ‘failures’ (not even the greatest general can succeed at impossible odds) of his generals. I genuinely believe that Hitler was one of the most interesting characters of the 20th century and it would be interesting to meet him under honest conditions. I believe he was an amazing motivator, propagandist, and to a great extent having the ability to grasp the importance of image (he had a personal photographer to sample each and every possible stance he could take during a speech). But, I also agree that in the latter stages of the war he made many mistakes and was perhaps given an unnecessary boost of ego through his military victories. I really don’t think he was a military genius as much as people like Napoleon, but I certainly believe that he was most adequate in many cases. However, we must realize that many of his military victories were due to his subordinates, who had immense capabilities. Remember, Hitler did not come up with lightning war, but rather a man by the name of Heinz Guderian (after adapting theories coming from two British officers). Glaring political mistakes were more costly than military ones, IMO. For example, why on God’s name did he declare war on the United States? Imagine if the Americans had kept their war effort in the Pacific, and had left Europe alone? I’m sure the Russians would have put up a decent fight, but the British would have succumbed sooner or later I’m sure. ------------------ Nederland 2002 Rocketman95 on board. Check out his latest game recaps.
Nomar, You lose all credibility with me in terms of history by comparing Napoleon's military mind with Hitler's mistakes. Please rethink this. Napoleon was, to a great extent, a military genius. I don't think you can deny the greatness behind his military accomplishments before Russia (and yes, in this case, these victories were ALL his). VOR, Hitler's genious cannot be linked with the ingenuity behind Blitzkrieg. He was NOT the one who made it up. He deserves recognition for giving Guderian freedom to explore such options through giving him position and means to do it, but that is as far as it goes. Hitler was not honorable by any means. I agree that with Dunkirk it could be be blamed (to a minimal extent) on what you mention, but I think it goes further than that. Hitler did not abide by military and political treaties. "This demand is final and abiding." Sound familiar? In Holland, he ordered Dutch soldiers to be used as human shields when attacking Dutch positions. He also tried to pin the fault of war between Germany and Poland on the Poles. I'm sure you've heard of that incident. No way can you say that he was honorable in the sense you refer to. ------------------ Nederland 2002 Rocketman95 on board. Check out his latest game recaps.
Ace, i hear ya. i totally agree with much of what you have posted. I too am aware of the origins of the Blitz. I dont beleive I gave hitler credit with coming up with it, however I am sorry if it appeared that way. i merely ment that his use of this revolutionary tactic coupled with new "tank" technologies was a stroke of genius. I would also like to set the record straignt about my position on Hitlers military genius. In the other thread i clearly stated that i knew that hitler was by no means a Military strategist. i made it fairly clear that in the context of the thread it was more PC of me to compliment the man for his ability to conquer rather than his ability to run an empire. As a long time competitor in debate (National Forensic League, Catholic Forensic League, as well as the American Parlimentary Debate Association) it is in my professional oppinion that hitler is one of the best speakers of all time, of recorded history anyway. I am also willing to state that Hitlers Economic programs were incredibly effective. His social programs although vulger, and disgusting served a valuable purpose for his cause. they ultimately proved to taint his legacy(rightfully so). some of these programs yeilded results. Hitler actually did testing on humans. Terrible, I KNOW. Evil, YOU BET!! but human testing is much more accurate and effective than animal testing(also bad). ok so the point of all of this is that i have been playing devils advocate since i started this thread. the long biography post i made was ill planned. hell i didnt even read it. It was posted to give DREAMer a hard time. totally imature of me, but it felt right at the time. he challenged something I said about hitler because i wasnt too precise. sooo i gave him about 4 pages of text to back up my reasons. its a good thing i didnt include the other 5 sections in his Biography. that would have been a small book. ok so to make a long story a little shorter. sorry for being the devils advocate, but i will happily continue the debate if the spirit of this debate is continued on a fairly high level. *PEACE ------------------ Hanta-Force Paintball http://www.hanta-force.com
Hitler may have had intelligence to be considered as a genius, but the fact that he orchestrated the murder of 6 million Jews (and God knows how many others) during his reign of terror places him squarely in the SUCKED category in my book. ------------------ I am the b*stard son of LHutz. Huh? Right!
