Ok, first off, despite what my wife says, I am pretty sure I am not a complete idiot. I mean, yeah, sometimes, sure, I can't find things in the fridge, and sometimes I forget where I leave my shoes, stuff like that.. but in the basketball realm, I have been an avid and studious fan for over 30 years, so I believe I can speak with at least a little bit of confidence about the subject. But some of you guys out there are really making me scratch my head in puzzlement. The issue I am just not understanding is about Battier. So many people are making the flat statement that Battier cannot be our primary Power Forward this year. Others argue the point, but there just seems to be this air of 'foregone conclusion' that Battier is only capable of properly manning the SF spot, and that his PF minutes, if any at all, will, for some mysterious reason, necessarily be limited. And, if Battier IS somehow our starting PF, that our team will somehow be woefully underserved at the position by him. Now I will be the first to admit that I am not a big stats guy. I just don't care about them that much. I care more if a guy is a PLAYER. And there is no question that Battier is a PLAYER, and a very good one at that. So, I have been trying to figure out why Battier has been deemed unacceptable as our PF. It's certainly not his hoops IQ, which all agree is outstanding. It's not his hustle, which everyone also agrees is outstanding. It can't be his defense - he is universally regarded as one of the best defenders in the league. It can't be his shooting, because the guy can shoot, even out beyond the arc, at a very respectable rate. Can't be his attitude, as he is, if anything, team-oriented to a fault. Not his character either - this guy is like the second coming of David Robinson, character-wise. I'm guessing the objection must be his size. He must be dreadfully undersized for the 4 in the NBA, right? I went and did a totally un-scientific sampling at random of NBA rosters, and just grabbed some names of guys who have been known to play the 4. Battier would be way out of line, size-wise, right? But: (starting with our own guys) 6'8" / 220 - Battier 6'9" / 230 - Juwan Howard 6'9" / 220 - RyBo 6'6" / 242 - Chuck Hayes (and then other teams) 6'9" / 230 - Stromile 6'9" / 240 - KMart 6'9" / 225 - AK47 6'9" / 235 - Othella 6'8" / 220 - Najera 6'8" / 217 - Tyrus Thomas 6'9" / 230 - David Lee 6'8" / 235 - Udonis Haslem 6'9" / 230 - Donyell Marshall 6'10"/ 225 - Joe Smith 6'9" / 240 - Ben Wallace (just cuz) Ok, that was just a quick sampling, there are lots more. Not as easy as I thought it would be because NBA.com has an annoying habit of just listing players as F or C or G, and not really letting you know where these guys actually play, but those above I just seem to remember as playing the 4. If I stuck some 3's in there, don't kill me. But there were others too who stood out, but for different reasons: 6'9" / 258 - Boozer 6'9" / 266 - Sean May 6'8" / 256 - Simien 6'8" / 255 - Ike Diogu 6'9" / 254 - Brian Grant And lots more where those second types came from. Many also who are listed a F/C (like Okafor and Rasheed - did not bother to include them). Less common, and I would guess that not many of them are going to be all-stars, least of all because they happen to weigh several pounds more than the average player at their height. But I am guessing that that must be the issue - that people think he's too 'small' to play PF, and that we must need one of those 'beefier' guys, and we would be all set. But.. 6'9" / 265 - Mo Taylor 6'8" / 260 - Lonnie Baxter We already had some guys like that. And we all know how that worked out. Big buncha nuthin. So just the size alone cannot explain it. There must be skill there as well. SOME people might actually even say that the skill level is far more important than the brute bulk. Personally, I would tend to agree with this. You look at some of history's really solid 4's, you see guys like Rodman, Cage, Oakley, Malone, McHale, Duncan.. some were beefy, some were frankly slight, but all have SKILL as a common factor. Ok, he's not a 7-footer. He's not Amare, or Dirk, or Duncan or KG. But do we really have to have an individual player at that same position who is BETTER than any of them in order for people to be satisfied? That's a ridiculous idea. The thing people keep forgetting is that none of those teams have a Yao Ming or a Tracy McGrady. We don't HAVE to have a better 4 than any other team in the league in order to be a contender. We can beat those teams with our superior 5 and 3, and complimented by a quintessential 'team' guy at the 4. Battier is tall enough, and he is 'big' enough for our needs, and the intensity, hustle, team-oriented-play, and pure basketball smarts should be more than enough to compensate when he has to play against a guy who may be an inch or two taller and 10 or 20 pounds heavier. So I guess I just don't get it. Not only do I believe that Battier will be our starting 4, but that we will be excellently benefited by his addition to the team. Why are so many people so convinced that he cannot do it?
I am neither here nor there on whether Battier is our PF. I just give you props for the sheer size of that post.
Battier will be fine at the PF spot. Look at the landscape of the NBA. Look where the NBA is headed. Teams get ONE widebody in the post and then throw a bunch of 2-3-4 swingmen at you. Heck, even the Spurs are probably going to go with more Duncan at C and either Horry/Bowen/Finley playing some PF. Other than someone like the Clippers that have a traditional C (Kayman) and PF (Brand), just about every other team has a traditional BIG and then a quicker guy next to him.
It's not only battier, it was spanoulis, the guy we just acquired and many others before people jump to conclusions that don't make sense...
Nero, I was one of those "Shane MUST play the 3" guys. I guess it's because I want to see TMac play more of the 2, I don't know. But after reading your post (and watching the USA basketball game last night) I'm convinced. Seriously. We have our starting PF. His name is Shane Battier. 5 star post, BTW.
What you don't get is that this team is playing the BIG mans game from here on out. There is a need for a Power Forward that can help and assist Yao Ming in the paint, one with some beef and height, a great shot blocker and rebounder, one that can complement Yao Ming and take the pressure off him! I don't see Battier when I think of what the Rockets need. PS Battier will be a great help to the team in general.
Thanks Nero. I've been asking the same question ever since draft night. I, for one, am very comfortable with Shane at the 4 knowing Yao and T-mac are on the floor too. (and we will be one of the top 5 teams by season's end) RR
What big man's game are you talking about? We don't need someone to help Yao inside the paint. We need someone to *space* the floor and draw defenders away from Yao in the paint. Not clog up the middle and make things harder. This is fundamental basketball knowledge here. Yao is perfectly capable of rebounding and blocking shots -- his sheer size and talent makes him far more than adequate at the center position. The point is Battier *is* big enough and skilled enough to whatever extra inside work is needed (rebounding, defense) and athletic enough to space the floor for Yao on the offensive end. He may not fit your close-minded view of what a "traditional power forward" is, but he is an excellent and extremely versatile complementary piece to fit between T-Mac and Yao.
I think people that say he can't play PF for extended minutes are looking at his rebounding, primarily. He's a good rebounder for SF, and definitely so for a SG. He'll struggle in that regard at PF, however. He played about 37% of his minutes at PF last season. In that time, he grabbed 7.2 reb/40min, while the opposing PF got 9.3 reb/40min. By comparison, though, Howard got 8.3 reb/40min as PF last season, and the opposing PF got 9.8 reb/40min. That is, he wasn't much better. Quick calculation: Code: reb/40 opp_reb/40 NET Battier 7.2 9.3 -2.1 Howard 8.3 9.8 -1.5 NET -1.1 -0.5 -0.6 So, supposing they maintain those rebounding rates for next season, we'd only be 0.6 rebounds per 40 minutes worse off at the PF position, relative to the opposing PF, with Battier as the PF versus Howard as the PF. Hope that makes sense.
You are right especially is the outside players are great shooters and HAVE to be guarded. At this point in time we have no idea if we have improved very much in our shooting ability, so its any ones guess as to which way would be best to help Yao Ming. Yes! This is Yao Mings Team and he is the BIG man to whom I refere. I only suggest the type of player because that is what most fans were hoping for.
Just FYI, Battier was guarding Puerto Rico's 7'3" Snoop-look-alike yesterday night. I'd trust Shaneshane to guard any position on the court.
we'll see how it plays out Shane seems so much thinner and weaker than his Height and Weight H*ll he doesn't have to be HARD just NOT SOFT [see Juwan] Rocket RIver
Rebounding would be my concern too. He might not be too much worse than Howard, but I was hoping to get someone who was actually better at it. But, we're not a bad rebounding team, even with our power forward position not being stellar at it, so we may be just fine. I've come to terms with the idea of Battier playing PF. I still want another PF though -- a F/C -- to back him and Yao up. And, that should be someone with some rebounding. Maybe that's Hayes, but I don't think Hayes can be our third center.
Shawn Marion plays the 4, and he even smaller right? I figure Shane can hold him down. Battier is probably not a reputed banger, but that is yet to be seen.
dude - with the KG/Dirk models at the 4, there are fewer and fewer real "bangers" in the NBA - just 6'10" jump shooters and goons
It's not that Battier would be a bad PF. He's probably a better PF than Juwan Howard. But he's a very good SF. He's one of the elite perimeter defenders. I gave this situation in another thread: Replace Howard and Battier with Shareef Abdur-Rahim and Ron Artest. Abdur-Rahim is an atrocious post defender, even worse than Howard even though he makes up for it offensively. Artest would definitely be a better PF than Abdur-Rahim. But you don't play Artest primarily at PF, because Artest is so valuable on the perimeter. Similarly, you can choose whether Battier should be an "acceptable" PF or a "very good" SF.
I trust that he can play the PF, but I'd rather we go out and get a true PF instead. Alston McGrady Battier Reggie Evans Yao Ming looks a lot better to me than Alston Snyder McGrady Battier Ming That's just an example.
