I posted some questions to those who follow the tenets of Islam here before and was met with some great help in facilitating a better understanding. I hope those same folks step up again and help me with some new questions. I recognize that scripture of both the Bible and the Koran have been distorted to bring about violence and death...that's a sad reality. But help me understand the following...you can see why just from the face of the scripture I might be concerned: Koran 9:73 Make war on the unbelievers and hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Koran 9:5 Then when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolators whereever you find them and take them captive and besiege them. Koran 5:51 Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship shall become one of their number. That last one is particularly concerning to me...it seems, from just a literal reading, that whomever answers this post cannot seek a friendship with me in any way. But again, there may be some surrounding text or circumstance which explains such a reading away. Help! Because on it's face, you can see why it would be concerning. I'd appreciate if you'd respond to each of the above instead of merely quoting new scripture which suggests you should be peaceful...basically what I'm hoping you can present is something directly related to the above passages which indicates you really aren't commanded by Mohammed to "slay idolators whereever you find them" and the like. Also...what's up with the "young boys" whom are described as being present in Paradise for all men. They're described in the same passages with the Seventy Virgins with the same descriptive language to describe their beauty ("scattered like pearls.") Does Allah tolerate homosexuality?? It's my understanding that the general concept is that he doesn't and that he certainly wouldn't reward his followers with young boys as homosexual playmates in Paradise. Again...I may be just really mistaken on this..it's just unclear and all very new to me. Any help would be appreciated!
I'm not so sure that last one is that odd. The Bible tells you not to associate with mystics and mediums. Those who practice mystic spirituality or Wicca could easily fall into that category, yet they are practicing legitimate religion and I would assume that most reasonable Christians could be friends with them even if they didn't agree.
Jeff -- I suppose that's true. The only problem is that Muslims and Christians (even according to Islam) are ultimately descendants of the Abrahamic faith. There is positive mention of Jesus in the Koran...not as Lord and Savior, as I believe...but as a prophet. The Koran refers to Christians as "believers of the book" or something close to that....and says that ultimately Allah will show me the failing of my ways at the Day of Judgment. It would appear to me that, according to the Koran, ultimately Christians will be made pure before Allah and will enter Paradise. Maybe I'm reading that wrong...or maybe I'm too hopeful for some sort of a peace in a world where we live side by side. So that's why I find it odd that we're not to be friends. At the same time, Christ commands his followers to go out into the world and share his love and compassion. Sadly, many fall down on that. But I think the association they're talking about with mediums is not a complete "don't be friends." That would directly contradict the Great Commission, I believe. It would contradict the dignity that I believe God accords all people. It seems quite clear that Christ was out actively ministering among those whom were most corrupt...certainly no less is called of us...I believe it's just that we're to embrace that corruption. I would make the same analogy to those who follow pagan religions. Love the person...condemn the act. That's the modus operandi of Christ.
MadMax, as far as I know, there is no war between Islam and Christianity. The war is between America (and our allies) and Islam according to the religious whackos in the Middle East, correct? The reason America is hated most is because it backs Israel who just happens to be the enemy of so many in the Middle East.
But lets be clear on one thing, that is not why we were attacked. The main reason is a group a malcontents who were taught to hate. Their stated 'reasons': 1) Support of Israel 2) Troops in Saudi Arabia 3) Bombing/embargo of Iraq But lets also understand that not that long ago bin laden had NO problems with the US. In fact, he was quoted as thanking a Saudi diplomat for bringing 'our friends' the Americans in to support the Afghans against the Soviets. Unfortunately, once that war was over, what does a leader of trained fighters do when there is no longer an obvious enemy? Some would opt to create a new enemy (see 'reasons' above). Note that you never hear about our military support of Muslims in Bosnia, food (and American lives) for Muslims in Somalia, protection of moderate Arab States, financial support for Muslim Afghanistan and the PLO, etc. That is because it suits them to distort the truth.
DOD -- huh?? I'm just asking some questions of some muslim posters who were helpful previously in my understanding of the Koran. That's all... however...Muslim clerics in other parts of the world are using these kinds of verses to inspire terror activities. To argue that this is completely unrelated seems quite silly to me. But I would agree that, at least from our perspective, this is not a war between Christianity and Islam. I don't know what I posted previously that would have led you to believe that's what I thought. I don't learn unless I ask questions...and I don't like being ignorant about things. So I figure I'd rather ask and risk looking silly asking than to act on my ignorant belief knowing I'll look like an ass eventually for it.
Mango: Does anybody take Samuel Huntington completely seriously? Incidentally, did you ever read that poem published in Foreign Affairs in response to Huntington? One of the most amusing things I've ever read.
MadMax, Sorry, I didn't mean to sound like I was jumping all over you. I was actually responding to the following quote of yours : I thought you were referring to why Christians and Muslims can't be friends. I also thought by transfer you were saying "Why can't Americans and Muslims be friends"? I was merely pointing out that this isn't Islam vs. Christianity, so just because America is predominantly Christian doesn't mean Muslims have to like us. It's more Middle East vs. America. Maybe I misunderstood your intent, and if so, I apologize. No insult intended.
I appreciate that, DOD...no worries! I was just questioning the scripture in the Koran that commands (on its face anyway) followers of Allah to not be friends with Jews or Christians. That's it.
A rather <i>insignificant country</i> acknowledges Huntington. <A HREF="http://www.foreignpolicy-infocus.org/commentary/vajpayee.html">Huntington Guides Vajpayee in Washington</A> Mango
MadMax: Interpretation of Quranic verses should only be left to scholars who have detailed knowledge of the Quran and Islam etc. However, it seems as though you are genuinely interested in these particular verses, so although I cannot give you a detailed interpretation, I will attempt to provide some clarification and background information. Koran 9:73 Make war on the unbelievers and hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Koran 9:5 Then when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolators whereever you find them and take them captive and besiege them. One thing about the Quran is that individual verses cannot be pulled and understood independently. The Quran was revealed to Muhammad over a span of 23 years. Each verse is in accordance to the problems/happenings of the time period in which it was revealed. That is why the Quran cannot be properly understood without studying the life of Muhammad. The above verses were revealed during times of war for the Muslims. These verses do not mean as a general statement, "<i>go and kill all the idolators!</i>" They are in accordance to the dilemmas of the time period in which they were revealed. The Muslims of Medina had been betrayed in a peace treaty and action is being taken to serve justice (if I have the correct verse in mind). The verses in the Quran are commandments to Muhammad and his followers <i>during their time.</i>. We have to remember that the Quran was not revealed at once, but peice by peice. Muslims today must first learn the life of Muhammad, and then they can understand these commandments. For example, let's say that I am sending you commandmets of mine to you by correspondence, commandment by commandment. You have been trying to start a business for the last 3 months but things haven't been going well. I tell you to "<i>get a real job and leave the business.</i>" You know that this commandment of mine to you is for your particular circumstance. However, if your grandchildren find these commandments, they will assume that I am saying that business is not worthwhile <i>in general</i> unless they have studied your life. Koran 5:51 Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship shall become one of their number. The Arabic of the Quran is very different from colloquial (sp?) Arabic. It is the purest, most distinct form of the language. Anyone who can speak Arabic will tell you that when the Arabic of the Quran is translated into English, a great deal of the meaning is lost. This is because the Arabic language is extremely precise. What would be synonyms in other languages are different degrees in Arabic. In the above verse, the word used for friend is "<i>wali</i>." In English, this is translated as "friend" and understood as "acquaintance." However, a "<i>wali</i>" is very different from the English word "friend." It is the closest of friends, the people who you go to for protection and share your secrets with. However, the translated English word "friend" only means someone who you are in good relations with etc. By no means is this verse telling the Muslims not to take Christians/Jews as their friends, only as their "<i>walis</i>." On the contrary, Muslims are encouraged to be in good relations with people of other religions.
Woww, that was some impressive imformation TheCabbage. Do you major in hitory, religion, or just read a lot? I'm very curious, that was a very good read.
A couple of questions and comments: For someone who is studied in Islam: I heard someone say that the Koran tells nothing of Clerics and that Clerics aren't right to exist being that all men are equal to God. Is this true? Another question: When one prays five times a day, are they the same prayers everyday, or do you speak your own words, or are they certain prayers you say at certain times of the day? Comment: I can see how single lines of text can be taken out of context very easily, and if one teaches them to an illiterate group of people in the world, it makes the spreading of hate very easy. Simple lines of text out of the Bible could easily be taken well out of context, especially if you take a specific command handed down from God for a specific event and only quote the command, and not the event.
the cabbage; thanks for explaining. i've been following this thread for quite some time hoping someone would answer. i'm aware of the fact that you cant pull out verses and interpret them alone, but thought it should better be left answered by someone more qualified than me. back in high school we were mostly thought to read the quran without knowing the full meaning. those who wanted to learn were encouraged to learn arabic rather than read the malay (our language) interpretation. spermac34; they're a little bit different for the ones done at different times of the day, but day to day they're the same (get it?). and there's also a few more other prayers than the daily 5.
thecabbage -- thanks so much for your help! I assumed those scriptures are taken entirely out of context. thanks a lot!
Am I safe to assume that only those who understand Arabic can really translate the Quran properly? Does this mean the english translation of the Quran is pretty much useless? Because if that's true, those muslims that don't speak Arabic, particularly those in America, have no idea what they're talking about or even believe. So it's more realistic to listen to muslims who speak Arabic, particularly those in the Middle East, to understand the true meaning of the quran.
