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Have Obama and Romney Forgotten Afghanistan?

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by HorryForThree, Aug 15, 2012.

  1. HorryForThree

    HorryForThree Member

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    Interesting article in the New Yorker the other day concerning the noticeable absence of discussion about the Afghan War (which is technically still active, though winding down...) by Obama and Romney up till now.

    A few quotes:
    He goes on to list what has been fairly well reported here- that, despite the military presence and crafting of a state structure, the political enterprise of Afghanistan is rife with corruption, scandals, and remains deeply vulnerable to the possibility of overthrow following our departure. The concluding paragraph pretty much says it all:

    Anyways, just wanted to post this thread to get peoples thoughts...
     
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  2. CrazyDave

    CrazyDave Contributing Member

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    We won't know what to do about it until we leave.
     
  3. MrRoboto

    MrRoboto Member

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    We won't know what to do about it until it is safe to build roads and start mining its resources.
     
  4. MoonDogg

    MoonDogg Member

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  5. justtxyank

    justtxyank Contributing Member

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    It's a hard topic for either side to hurt the other with or help themselves with so no wonder they don't talk about it.

    Obama called it the good war (not exact quote obviously) and talked about Iraq being extra bad because it was hurting us in Afghanistan. That war isn't going so well and is unpopular so Obama doesn't want to talk about it. He can't bash the Republicans for being there and he doesn't want to draw attention to his own record there either.

    On the flipside, it's not like Romneyan can bash Obama on the war (with any ounce of honesty) because it isn't like Obama has taken a position on that war contrary to the long held Republican view on the war. All he could say is "It's not going well I could do better!" But does a Republican really want to get into the debate over who would do better in these wars after the Bush years?

    They are both better off ignoring it politically.
     
  6. MrRoboto

    MrRoboto Member

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    Just a side note -

    China has been steadily driving up the price of Neodymium. So much so that some audio manufacturers have been forced to resort back to other technologies for things such as speakers and microphones.

    One major commercial pro sound manufacturer told me that they have gone back to ceramic magnets for their large enclosures because Neodymium was *costing* them an addition $300.00 per enclosure.

    Afghanistan is the new rare earth goldmine and our interest is strong.
     
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  7. Mathloom

    Mathloom Contributing Member

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    There are very few people who are going to sniff the benefits of those minerals. While I'm sure everyone's INTEREST is strong, the reality is that not everyone's ability to exploit Afghani minerals is equally strong. I don't expect it to "trickle down" either.

    In the end, a small group of people who have good relationships will luck out. But I think this is all going to take some time as it will require loads more infrastructure and faux-stability before the real benefits are realized.
     
  8. Mathloom

    Mathloom Contributing Member

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    vaids, do you really think it's relevant to discuss this war when Mitt Romney is refusing to release his tax returns?

    What kind of message does it send if these guys spend their time talking about invasions when it's possible Mr Romney has a booboo in his tax returns which he didn't think he would have to show even though virtually every other candidate in the past has agreed to release the same info?
     
  9. Classic

    Classic Member

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    Lithium FTW.

    These presidential stooges would never talk bad about their corporate backers. Afterall, wars are fought for resources.

     
  10. da_juice

    da_juice Member

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    The average American voter doesn't care about it sadly. We haven't had a successful attack from AQ since 9/11, and unfortunately no one cares about the troops there or the Afghan people. Afghanistan and the GWOT seem distant.
     
  11. MrRoboto

    MrRoboto Member

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    Absolutely. But this is what will keep us there for a long, long time. It will take probably a decade before it is safe to build roads where they need to go. Another ten years of infrastructure building. Maybe another ten before rewards begin to be reaped. And that is probably best case.

    But when talking in trillions of dollars it will happen. The question is whether the Afghan people will see any of the reward and which country actually does the mining. This is the type of potential where Russia, China and the US end up in a bar fight over the last drink of whiskey...
     
  12. IzakDavid13

    IzakDavid13 Contributing Member

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    It is sad how silent the media has also become on the Afghanistan front, especially the fact that US soldiers, as recently as last week, are being shot in the back and killed by the men that they are training up to take over the country.

    http://www.torontosun.com/2012/08/11/3-more-us-soldiers-shot-in-afghanistan

    I guess we can't have dead soldiers ruining the Election Campaign.
     
  13. JD88

    JD88 Member

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    I spent time in Afghanistan and I could care less.

    The war started out well enough, but then it became corrupt, our government started handing out insane contracts to their friends, side deals were made, and like magic, it turned from catching OBL to rebuilding the country.

    Then, what little morality remained, was wiped out by the political correctness of the war. The troops became disinterested, the hate between the troops and Afghan soldiers became stronger, and now the population has started to turn on us (dont believe that bull**** in the news about how the population hates us, that simply isnt true, I know I was just there). On the flip side, the troops dont like the Afghans much either. Its tough to know that you have to put yourself into harm's way to CYA in case some butter bar Lt. decides that the guy toting the rifle wasn't aiming at you to kill you, he was simply using his scope to check out how cool your truck is.

    The war now is wasteful and pointless. In 60sq miles around Camp Leatherneck, Helmand Province, the American military burns 125,000 gallons of JP8 fuel a day. A day. While that number may shock you, consider it cost around $400 per gallon, after you consider the cost it takes to get it there to be put into our vehicles and generators.

    Point being, nobody wants to talk about it, because its a huge mess. Everyone thinks if you ignore it, it will go away.

    And on a side note, yes, generally nobody cares anymore, as long as its not your son or daughter, your mother or your father, or friend or brother or sister that is over there. Or you are a vet.
     
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  14. Mathloom

    Mathloom Contributing Member

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    Given what you've described, I can only assume/hope that you mean you "could care less" about the tax returns?

    Obviously I don't believe that the population of any country hates the population of any other country. I believe radical ideologists always have and always will hate other people depending on how different they look/think, and I think that the population of radical ideologists increases in the absence of appropriate information and education. If I were to believe the news, or even some of the people on here, then I would also be considered one of those people who hates America. I know that this manufactured notion is a continuing ploy to convince Americans to vote more and more towards the right, and it is a policy that has been in action since the early to mid 1900's. I don't think it's a political policy - I think it is done by people who seek profit and don't care about the circumstances. I think those profit seekers take full advantage of the affair between business and politics at the expense of literally anything and anyone else.

    The all-encompassing reality is that socio-political progress is the least profitable proposition for those who have the power to make serious changes to the socio-political climate. So they will fight it. Whatever it takes, they will fight it. They know full well what happens to people exactly like them if there is no dominant military to protect them. They know that respecting sovereignty means that they have to go back home and deal with disgruntled people back home, unemployment, paying fair prices for assets, stand trial for a decemated local economy built on unrealized promises, and treating employees like humans should be treated.

    As for Afghanistan, you can stay there forever, they won't go anywhere. Where would they go? That is their home, and among the cheapest places to live. You can set ablaze every single member of Al Q, and if one uneducated, poor and frustrated fool stumbles upon any ideological text dealing with politics, you better believe he will jump start a similar movement.

    Al Q declared a war of attrition way at the start, it's what they want, even if it means losing people. Those seeking the minerals are also in support of a drawn-out war, even if it means losing a group of citizens and costing the remaining ones a lot of money. Everyone else is against. When you look at those 3 parties, who's keeping this show going?

    As for it being wasteful, I agree. Your example is a drop in the pond. A pond for which Afghanis will never be reimbursed, because there is no one representing them - neither the tribal radicals nor the political radicals. Good luck to them.
     
  15. Dubious

    Dubious Contributing Member

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    There is nothing else we can do. We're done.
     
  16. HorryForThree

    HorryForThree Member

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    A few thoughts on the topic (some reinforcing what others have already said, others my own additions...):

    It is obvious that this topic is not politically expedient to either side, but what is interesting is how both candidates can sell themselves as enhancing national security and effectively managing wars when neither has even tried to articulate their views on the Afghan conflict.

    This is significant, particularly as it regards either sides desire for interventionism in the coming decade. Iranian intervention is often justified through many of the same talking points that led us into Iraq and Afghanistan, and yet neither of those conflicts can be credibly classified as successes. Not only that, but the lead up to conflicts rarely demonstrates the level of caution, nuance, and reserved apprehension that failing conflicts show- today it's common to see neocons saying we need to see how things play out, or interventionist liberals citing the plethora of complications that exist in afghanistan (tribal conflicts, etc.). One wonders where such reservations have been for the past decade.

    Again, my concern is the perpetuation of this cycle going forward (note how the Iranian debate is being led by hawkish ideologues) along with the lack of consequences for failure. For powerful states, military failures rarely register- the GDP is 13 trillion, so budgeting a couple hundred billion towards defense and not reaping rewards isnt that big a deal. When the impact of failure is not appreciably felt, both politicians and the populace fail to grasp the impact of policies on the world community and the potential consequences of these activities in the long run. So long as that dynamic exists, we're just another reckless politician away from another decade long conflict with little prospect of success.
     
  17. JD88

    JD88 Member

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    It happens alll the time.

    Whats sad is the Afghan people generally want our help, but their government and the Taliban/AQ dont want us there. Our country has become war weary because of their actions, which leads to the population of Afghanistan having to suffer.

    Over there, they dont have banks, so instead they buy fancy jewelry as a sort of, investment. I had truck drivers offer me rings, swiss watches, all kinds of things, as a sign of gratitude for giving them jobs and helping to rebuild the country. They love us and want us there. My guess (and I havent been there since the spring of 2011) is that probably 70% of the population support us being there. Its just one of those cases where the vocal minority wins out, like always.

    Personally, I dont have faith in either Obama or Romney leading us out of Afghanistan in a successful manner. However, at this point, I would take either of them leading us out at all.

    Like I said in another thread a while back, when the media became so involved in the war, all was lost. Im not going to go on my rant again about how moronically this war has been fought, but I will say that now there is no chance we can make this out to look like a victory. The day we leave, the Taliban will roll back into town and take over, but this time, with the knowledge that they are still undefeated against superpowers and with political backing and vast support from every extremist willing to blow themselves up for the greater good.
     
  18. MrRoboto

    MrRoboto Member

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    No president is leading us out of Afghanistan.

    At this point that would be like breaking into the bank and then walking away empty handed, leaving trillions in diamonds inside of the freshly cracked safe.

    Due to the rare earth minerals in that country we will be there for fifty years or more.
     
  19. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member
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    Actually Obama has articulated his views about Afghanistan in both words and actions. He has felt from before he was even President that more attention needed to be paid in Afghanistan. He went along with the opinions of his generals that a surge was needed to improve the security situation but that it needed to be on a limited timetable to try to motivate the Afghan government to step their readiness. That hasn't worked the way he planned so it is obvious that he doesn't want to talk about it.

    At the same time it is almost impossible for Romney to campaign as a peace candidate that will end the war rapidly when his rhetoric regarding national security is even harder than Obama's. As another poster noted it isn't in either candidates interest to talk about Afghanistan. Obama's strategy hasn't worked and the only way Romney could credibly contrast himself to Obama while being true his hawkish rhetoric is to call for an increase of troops in Afghanistan. He isn't going to do that because it would be wildly unpopular and he probably realizes wouldn't work either.

    I find it almost incredulous that you are wondering where reservations have been the past decade. There were tons of reservations voiced about Iraq before and during the invasion and occupation. There were many reservations voiced about the surge in Afghanistan.

    Iran isn't a big issue in the campaign but it is an issue. Obama has been towing a very cautious line regarding military action in Iran and has been openly discouraging Israel from striking Iran. Romney has advocated a harder line towards Iran and would essentially support an Israeli strike against Iran.
     
  20. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member
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    A lot of people have brought this up about the natural resources in Afghanistan but there seems little effort actually put into going after them. We are already in the process of drawing down troops from Afghanistan and at the moment barring an unforeseen circumstance it looks like we will eventually withdraw.

    Anyway if natural resources are the reason we are in and staying in Afghanistan why haven't there been any major mining resources undertaken in Afghanistan? While Afghanistan probably does have mineral wealth so far no private companies are putting in serious investment to get it.
     

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