Here are some interesting comments from a bbs frequented by young law grads, many of whom are struggling with massive debt and low paying jobs. The practice of law with poor people has made me more radical. Obama's election has made me more radical, but knowing the history of the third parties in the US means I will vote for him again. Just don't ask me to give him any money or work for him. This from JD Underground.com http://www.qfora.com/jdu/thread.php?threadId=11200 AbrahamLincoln (Jun 18 - 6:52 pm) I am curious because a few comments on http://www.qfora.com/jdu/thread.php?threadId=11187 mentioned the troubled economic system and politics. On AboveTheLaw, I noticed that many of the comments are right wing; whereas here it seems more leftist. The problems of the law school business can be critiqued from both a right wing ("Government should not be guaranteeing the loans") to left wing (consumer fraud, exploitation of the young, irrational and un-meritocratic economic outcomes). Has your journey altered your political views? Confirmed them? Reply -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- onehell (Jun 18 - 9:47 pm) Being a legal aid attorney, my opinions obviously have tended towards the left, and when I was a student, the extreme left. But law practice has most definitely shifted me more towards the "moderate" column. I learned from being out in the real world that the things that make people poor really are very often their own fault, or the fault of their own culture. Not always, but often. That realization, coupled with the the way practice can give you a keen understanding of how few battles are really truly worth fighting due to lack of substantial damages or uncertainty of result or litigation costs or length of time to resolution, has definitely made me both more pragmatic and more moderate than I was as an idealistic young'un. Oh, and I can tell you more personally and more directly than most that you cannot use the practice of law to change the world. You can definitely make life better for a few people here and there, sometimes a lot better, but you cannot change the world. Reply -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- kmc666 (Jun 18 - 9:59 pm) I was a typical starry-eyed liberal through college, then I worked in the business world for about five years and became conservative ("if you work hard enough you will make it!", "i don't want the government taking my money!"), then went to law school and totally ****ed my life over with a dead end degree and a crushing debt load and am now back to being liberal ("the world is a scam, and there needs to be some protection from the wolves"). AJRESQ (Jun 19 - 12:22 am) More liberal politically, more conservative business-wise. schlitz (Jun 19 - 8:09 pm) Law school pushed me far left on social/foreign policy issues yet somewhat conservative on domestic spending and business issues. Libertarian leaning but I don't care much for any specific party label. Reply -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- snookerbtch (Jun 19 - 12:50 am) became right-wing or, more accurately, libertarian in law school. after i actually started to read the constitution and learn what it means, hard not to. Reply -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- AbrahamLincoln (Jun 19 - 5:00 pm) Edit. Reply -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- thejduposterman (Jun 22 - 9:57 pm) And what bearing, exactly, does that have on constitutional interpretation? It's irrelevant red herrings like this that make the living constitution crowd look like morons. Reply -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- AbrahamLincoln (Jun 22 - 10:34 pm) Edit. Reply -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TiredofStrugglin (Jun 19 - 6:03 pm) at this point, i don't know what to call my views. i see corruption everywhere. to a certain extent, the whole "left" vs. "right" in American politics has dwindled into bad political theatre that maintains a kind of institutionalized status quo between two corporatist parties. what does this make me? a populist? i'm not a libertarian, because i don't view government, rules and laws as inherently bad, and definitely don't view individual autonomy as the first best choice. i'm not a centrist. i was a poli sci major at uni, so i know well how limited the American political spectrum is. i guess i'm still left-wing, but i rarely, if ever, see an American politician who satisfies what i'm looking for (i don't think there's a left in American politics anymore - not in government, anyway), and i hate the so-called "liberal elite." whatever i am, i think i'm de facto disenfranchised. Reply -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- texlaw (Jun 22 - 4:11 pm) I definitely went more to the right. From a family of nonsensical liberals, law economics opened my eyes. I am more moderate and not really a conservative, but most definitly not a liberal. My high school was quite republican and my college full of liberals, like most. The abysmal performance of Obama (BP anyone?)and the horrific Congress has only cemented my beliefs. I thought Obama was a poor choice, but unlike others, I was hoping he would be at least decent, as the country desperately needs it. Sadly, Obama will likely be regarded as the worst President ever and failed to offer anything but the same tired, recycled ideas that didn't work the first time. Not to mention, the liberal utopias of Europe are collapsing under the weight of entitlements. So forget about the universal healthcare and free tution the lefties continue to crow about - it's all being reduced and phased out. Reply -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- lefthandscribble (Jun 19 - 7:04 pm) There is no question while attending law school my political beliefs radically changed. Before law school, I voted, I cared about the outcome of elections, and I had a very leftist lens through which I viewed every issue under the sun. Before law school I regularly read screamingly liberal publications like Harpers, Atlantic Monthly, and the New York Review of Books. After law school, I don't care about politics any more than I care about professional sports (which is to say only a tiny bit), and often yawn and roll my eyes whenever people try to engage me regarding (fill in significant thing people are supposed to care about here.) To be honest though, I'm not sure how much any of this has to do with law school though. It may be a common transition for most people to mellow or move towards the center as they grow out of their idealist college phase and into full blown adulthood in all of its grim meathook reality. GuyInGorillaSuit (Jun 19 - 8:16 pm) I was a right-winger in my 20s and through law school. I started leaning left after graduation in 2007, and now I am basically a Marxist Reply -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Frida2 (Jun 19 - 9:28 pm) Before and during law school I was a moderate Democrat and am still a moderate Democrat. I voted for Clinton in the primary. I am much less interested in politics and much more cynical about politics than I used to be. I used to be something of a political junkie but not really anymore. I hate all the shows with obvious political views whether left or right. I like POTUS on XM/Serius. I work for legal aid (part time no benefits I am not one of the privileged full time with benefits staffers). I deal with poor people all the time and while I continue to believe in a safety net of course I think alot of people in poverty are there due to their own fault or their parent's fault. I have two beautiful children that I can afford to raise in a middle class lifestyle thanks to my husband but I hate that in this country it makes more sense for poor people to have kids than middle class people. Having kids can make you go from middle class to poor. I think the government should absolutely stop making it easy to get student loan money -- which may be considered right wing. I am a Democrat (so far) but I am skeptical of all politicians and of government. I could never be a Republican as long as they have the social views they have, but I could see the Republican party changing in the future over time so who knows, maybe someday I will be a Republican. Reply -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- samueltcogley (Jun 19 - 10:17 pm) Before law school I was cynical about being a liberal. Then in Torts I listened to gunners give appalling GOP talking-point speeches about capping medical malpractice awards, and felt more liberal. Reply -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4th_registration (Jun 22 - 11:42 am) I'm pretty right wing, and sadly, most moderate right wingers and Republicans I know are so accustomed to govt-backed student loans (and other govt stuff) that they can't conceive of abolishing them. They'd consider that radical and unreasonable, esp if their own kids and grandkids need them to attend better schools without hitting up the family for $$$. Reply -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bostonlawyer.2 (Jun 20 - 7:34 am) I was right wing throughout high school and college, and most of my 20s. Since about 28 have leaned further left....but I think the most important thing rather than right or left...is how rational actors react to economic signals. I guess as I have lived more in the real world I have seen that "working hard" "doing the right thing" and "education" really does not pay off for alot of people.... I am fiscally conservative and socially liberal. As I am in litigation I would never vote Republican anyway as that would be votiing to put myself out of business. e.g. tort reform etc... Reply -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- schopenhauerx99 (Jun 20 - 11:19 am) I was more left-wing in high school, even though I didn't know it; but it was coupled with a strong social conservative streak founded in attending a Calvinist high school. I became more socially liberal in college and more fiscally conservative in college, but I'm not a libertarian. Frankly, I support consumer protections upon the auspices of contracts law. I will say it's strange that those who do advocate consumer protection don't use contracts law language as a basis for their regulations, and rather they use concepts such as "public safety" and "fairness" and "injustice." I support strong anti-trust laws as being in "the spirit of capitalism," because it provides consumer with a choice in the market. I could go on and on... Reply -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bostonlawyer.2 (Jun 20 - 11:49 am) I suppose you are supposed to go more right wing the older you get. Quite the opposite for me. Sudden unexpected death, illness, looking down the barrel of job loss with massive loan debt.....the way the rich have gotten bailed out and the rest get the shaft......etc. 9/11, the wars, the economic crisis, the oil spill etc... Reply -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FrankytheFly (Jun 21 - 2:17 pm) It wasn't law school which changed my views as much as it was entering the real world and confronting the reality that education, hard work, and preparation does not always result in a job. As I searched for a job and worked non-law jobs my political views transformed from that of an advocate of something close to Ayn Rand-style laissez-faire capitalism to that of a socialist-leaning advocate of a mixed economy, which is where I am today. I used to believe that good things would happen to good people and I believed in Meritocracy. My views on economics and many on ethics and even meta-ethics have been transformed as a result of the state of our nation's economy and the job market. Reply -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- lawsucks (Jun 21 - 2:41 pm) As a result of law school, I'm much more sympathetic to the plight of the poor, as I am now one of them. I used to have republican leanings, (more from a social perspective-I still think abortion is wrong) but I never registered with a political party, and I still refuse to do so. I've liberalized in the sense that whatever misgivings I have about abortion are trumped by the fact that abortion is not going away and that fact that I believe in gay marriage. Economically, I've pretty much evolved into a communist. It makes no sense to me that someone like Meg Whitman can be worth a billion dollars. I went to law school thinking that law somehow transcended politics. Now I see what a bunch of BS it all is. Reply -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- schopenhauerx99 (Jun 21 - 2:51 pm) Most of the people who post on here tend to adovcate a strong meritocracy (a strong conservative idea)-as evidenced by their support for fewer law schools and only those with high gpas and lsat scores should be attending those school. For the mass number of law schools and the mass number of graduates each year I blame the media and the high self-value culture of the past 30 years. I do not blame it on the democratization of education, because law has always been a fairly easy profession to enter into in this country, provided you worked hard and were willing to accept being someone else's b**** for a few years (see the lives of Abraham Lincoln and a few other early American politicians). I guess I should also blame instant-gratification, as most who go into law assume they'll be rich in only a couple of years. Reply -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- lawsucks (Jun 21 - 3:01 pm) You think law is a meritocracy? Okaaay. In my view it's only a little more meritocratic than having GW make it to president. Let's face it, law is one of the most nepotistic professions out there. How many of you got hired by a friend of a friend or a relative? Reply -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- schopenhauerx99 (Jun 21 - 3:13 pm) Practicing law is NOT a meritocracy, but getting into law schools typically is. Reply -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Motionsickalchy (Jun 22 - 11:11 am) I became much more libertarian after law school, although I always was (No I am not an heir). The democrat's philosphy of government just doesn't work, and I am far from a social conservative. I typically vote for far right wing Republicans just because there is no other alternative. Reply -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- utgr (Jun 22 - 3:43 pm) I was a strong Reaganite through HS and College. I am still a Reaganite or Bu****e on foreign policy. Unfortunately I have come to realize that the American economy is fundamentally based on two INCOMPATIBLE things: 1-high consumption 2-low wages 30 yrs. of Republican economic policy results in a WINNER TAKE ECONOMY! The top 2% of almost jobs make 75% of the money. Tiop 2% of doctors, lawyers, top .015 of ballplayers, actors etc etc etc That is the result of 30 yrs. of Reagansim! Reply -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- texlaw (Jun 22 - 4:14 pm) Thank you. "Trickle down" didn't work out as expected, IMHO. Reply -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- bigwags (Jun 28 - 11:55 am) The idea of 'trickle down' economics is/was one of the biggest scams pushed out to the populace in the past 50 years. Cutting taxes for the rich so they can invest/spend in the economy to create jerbs only works when they actually do it, but they don't. The dumb majority that voted for the pro-tax-cut legislators doesn't realize that the top 10% of earners are also the top 99% of savers; and the saving of money into a 2% yield money market account does next to nothing for the economy at large. The economy that is crashing right now was wholly dependent on the bottom 90% overextending their credit and spending ~103% of their income annually. That economy is gone. Reply -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- wolfman (Jun 22 - 4:08 pm) I was a typical conservative Republican (though never a libertarian) throughout high school and college. Law school and real-world experience (both before an after law school) inceasingly convinced me of the importance of shared culture, hierarchy, breeding, discipline, respect for learning and national/civilisational pride. The charms of "me everything today" capitalism fade upon close inspection, but I was never tempted toward modern liberalism. You could say I went from being an Adam Smith conservative to a Samuel Huntington one, with a strong American Southern flavor. My views now mostly resemble those of Julius Evola (among theorists) and Franco/Salazar (among practitioners). I supppose other people might call me a fascist, and I will agree - up to a point, stopping with early Mussolini (before he became a pompous windbag) and well short of Hitler and his band of Teutonic psychopaths... Reply -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- texlaw (Jun 22 - 4:15 pm) Anakin? Is that you? Reply -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FrankytheFly (Jun 23 - 8:41 pm) It's funny you should say that. I sometimes look at my transformation from moralizing capitalist to advocate of a socialist-leaning mixed economy and wonder if I've made a transformation to the dark side. Reply -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- texlaw (Jun 22 - 4:17 pm) I don't think law school changed my views so much as taught me how to read through the bull**** from the party hacks, the media, industry PR campaigns, etc. Or at least taught me that it should always be attempted and to never trust a "fact" you haven't "sourced" yourself. jdjoe (Jun 22 - 7:50 pm) Yes, I used to be a raging liberal (cared about other people, wanted to change the world, etc.) but now I'm a nihilist/libertarian/anarchist/socialist/fascist... but mostly this is my new political ethos: 1) the world owes you nothing, and anything you get is down to luck (e.g. what land mass you were born in) 2) look out number one since nobody else will (ok, maybe your parents, but usually they can't help you) 3) political ideologies (e.g. laissez-faire, marxism) look nice on paper but it's all bull**** and most political leaders follow principle 2 anyway. 4) Maybe you aren't the best off, but fortunately you're not as cluster****ed as most people in the globe (e.g. the iilliterates, most people in Africa, China, etc.) wolfman (Jun 22 - 8:09 pm) 4) Maybe you aren't the best off, but fortunately you're not as cluster****ed as most people in the globe (e.g. the iilliterates, most people in Africa, China, etc.) True (so far). Unfortunately, our leaders are doing their level best to change that fact... Reply -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FrankytheFly (Jun 23 - 8:43 pm) That's true but many Americans aren't all that much better off. Millions don't have health care coverage and hundreds of thousands of Americans are homeless. Many Americans don't know where their next meal is coming from. jeremiahwright (Jun 22 - 10:33 pm) I was raised a republican but I had a come to Jesus moment when old man Bush started killing innocent people down in central america. I went all in when I became a lawyer and I found out republicans hated lawyers even their own. Reply -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- blackpappy (Jun 25 - 9:51 pm) 1) The Supreme Court is, and always has been, a fraud. Those people use the law to justify whatever the **** they want to do. 2) This country is and always has been about ****ing over the poor to keep the rich man rich. Any arguments about race, gender, region are basically red herrings. 3) Most poor people are poor because they made lots of stupid decisions. 4) Many rich people made even stupider decisions but they are still rich. 5)The only way democracy will ever be real is after a massive government redistribution of wealth. But that tend to lead to genocide and/or a totalitarian state to protect against the powerful backlash that comes when anybody threatens the rich man's money. 6) You cannot help someone who is not ready to help themselves. Once they are ready to help themselves, they will need very little help from you. 7)Many liberals want to help the poor, not for the poor's sake, but for their own self actualization. When people say they marched at Selma, oftentimes it is more about them than it is about Selma. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- utgr (Jun 28 - 10:55 am) A lot of what you are insinuating is true! But the cure to solving these issues will be worse than the disease.
I'll concur with that. How the bbs didn't cut you off earlier, I don't understand. Business school definitely changed my politics, but I don't think I moved left or right. I got a better appreciation for the machinery of capitalist economics, but also a stronger confidence in active political manipulation of the markets for the general welfare and for wealth redistribution. So, somehow, I became more capitalist and more socialist at the same time.
"The idea of 'trickle down' economics is/was one of the biggest scams pushed out to the populace in the past 50 years. Cutting taxes for the rich so they can invest/spend in the economy to create jerbs only works when they actually do it, but they don't. The dumb majority that voted for the pro-tax-cut legislators doesn't realize that the top 10% of earners are also the top 99% of savers; and the saving of money into a 2% yield money market account does next to nothing for the economy at large. The economy that is crashing right now was wholly dependent on the bottom 90% overextending their credit and spending ~103% of their income annually. That economy is gone" i thought this was really well said
Yep if you look at the numbers the 70% of spending done by the public changes only slightly in a downturn. It's businesses that stop spending, the normally represent 20% and the government 10%. I remember sitting in a undergrad economics class discussing this in 2003. Same thing, business cut spending, government must increase to keep up, but people keep on chugging along. This recession exact same problem. I read a recent article that business spending is down to something like 12-13% government is up to 25-28%, but consumer spending has only dipped a bit. You can cut taxes all you want for businesses. They won't hire because they have no customers.
My experience in practicing bankruptcy law has certainly changed me. I find myself a lot less judgmental on how people live their lives. I am much more moderate socially. My sense of fiscal conservatism lessened a little, but not all that much. I find, interestingly, that our government is engaging in the same behaviors that I would counsel my clients against taking and the same behaviors that landed them in bankruptcy to begin with. Living outside one's means and relying too heavily on debt for the day to day. If the government cannot show any financial restraint, why would we expect any different from the rank and file citizenry? If the government were an ordinary person, most here would shake their heads and mutter something about how they have acted irresponsibly.
My political perspective changed pretty dramatically over the last 6 years, largely in concert with my theology. I've always heard people grow to be more conservative as they get older....it's been the opposite for me.
I think both have changed me. Even though Cal has the reputation of being a liberal bastion my experience there really taught me to think critically which extended to everything including very liberal ideas that I once held and also liberal professors and politicians. At the sametime my experience of travelling and spending time in Asia have changed my views along with running a business. In general I would say that my views continue to evolve and I have made it a point to not become so rigid in my thinking as to not be able to re-evaluate my views.
I read a lot of posts in your OP and I find myself agreeing with them. I try not to be too cynical because I consider it a negative trait, but I find myself doing so more so than ever. I find myself continuously challenging and maturing in my political "beliefs" and occasionally adopting mixed stances that are sometimes ideologically counter-intuitive.
Reality + my conscience made me pretty liberal When I was a kid I was taught poor people are poor because they are lazy. Rich people are rich because they are the hardest workers. That simple. The funny thing is my parents worked their asses off just to keep us middle class. They drank the kool aid for sure. As an adult, I've seen relatives who busted their asses their entire lives become practically homeless due to factors largely (but not completely) out of their control. I have also known very wealthy people who reached "elite" status due inheritance, family favors or flat out dishonest dealings with others. At 32, I earn an upper middle class living thanks to a little hard work, some luck and knowing the right people. I could just as easily be poor if not for two or three chance encounters in my adult life. I suspect that is the case with many people. I remember that every day of my life. I find people who live by the "poor people are lazy" manner of thinking tend to be the first ones to try to milk the system for every dollar they can get out of it. Also, I have yet to meet a truly self-made man who wasn't compassionate toward those who are less fortunate.
I find this interesting as I have "known" you as a poster for more than 10 years...what happened? Can you elaborate? By the way, great topic for a thread and I didn't know that you are a lawyer, glynch .
By the way, I forgot to answer the question. In my case, I think it is a constantly evolving process. After high school, I was probably more idealistic than I am now - was a member of Amnesty International and Greenpeace and stuff, but at the same time, I preferred the conservative party in Germany. I did not know much about economics or how a business is run and all that, since my dad was a doctor and I was not really exposed much to this stuff. During school and adult life, I developed more of an interest in economics and probably seeing the fall of communism and later getting my MBA degree at the University of Chicago strengthened my belief in free markets more and more. However, having grown up in Germany, we always had a "social free market economy" and my time in the US (where I saw a lot more poverty than in Germany) and other experiences like the excessive banker bonuses and their abuse of the system had an impact on me believing that there definitely need to be checks and balances and a social safety net for those who are too weak to take care of themselves. So to answer the question, I think it's both school and adult life.
I leaned the most conservative the first two years of college. Started to see theory crumble with every time Dub**** opened his mouth.
Only over the last 6 years? I thought you had always been a devout Christian since the first time I can remember one of your posts.
If faith isn't growing or changing, it's dead....at leat in my view. My understanding of who God is deepened and changed. My understanding of Christ in the context of the Empire he lived in grew. That had huge implications on how my view of everything. Way too complex to unpack here, honestly.
