Boredom with the pre-August 1 free agency period led me to conduct some research. Did you know that Russell never averaged as much as 19 PPG? Or shot better than 47% from the field? Yeah, Russell won alot of rings, but he also played with 8 future hall of famers. You don't think Hakeem or, say, Dikembe Mutombo could have accomplished the same thing with that cast? My list of top Centers: (1) Chamberlain (2) Abdul-Jabbar (3) Dream (4) Mo Malone (5) Russell (but I could make a case for Ewing, or Shaq for that matter). What do you all think? Agree? Disagree? Who is your top 5? ------------------
ewing no 1) wilt chamberlain 2) sam mack's "bud" abdul jabbar 3) hakeem olajuwon 4) bill russell 5) shaq ------------------ johnny "red" kerr:i'm glad the bulls did'nt draft steve francis. dan roan: why!!!!! johnny red kerr:because he would forever be compared to michael jordan.
Didn't we just go through this in the NBA forum? http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000819.html ------------------ "Get up, stand up. Stand up for your right"-Bob Marley [This message has been edited by BobFinn* (edited July 19, 2000).]
My bad Bobfinn*. Didn't even see that thread. (it was a month ago, anyway) Killjoy! I stand by my views though. Russell was really not much better than, say Dennis Rodman (without the attitude). The Worm did get 5 rings, you know, and isnt much smaller than Russell. ------------------ [This message has been edited by SamCassell (edited July 19, 2000).]
Many critics say that Olajuwon wasn't a true center. I beg to differ(if he was not a true center neither was the man with 11 rings Bill Russell). Its hard to rate the great centers of all time. I know the 5 I'd pick would be: Wilt Chamberlain Best center Kareem Abdul-Jabbar Jump hook Bill Russell Defensive extroadinare Hakeem Olajuwon Dream shake George Mikan First big man Shaquille O'Neal next great center ------------------
Did you know that Bill Russel has a scary demon laugh? He is a boogety man. ------------------ I am so exasperated that I could expectorate.
I love DREAM but Bill Russell was the man. He changed the game and had a fire much like Hakeem. Sure you might say Wilt and Kareem were more talented but Russell knew how to win. And that will always make him number 1 in my book. After that I would put Hakeeem next then Wilt and Kareem. ------------------
I never saw Russell play. But how can one say, emphatically, "he knew how to win" and give him all the credit? So is Sam Jones "the man" #2 since he won 10 titles? What about Havilcek, Heinson, KC Jones, etc. with 8? Like I said previously, the celtics had an unbelievable number (9) of HOFers on those rosters. (none of them as good as Dream) All that really shows me is how good Chamberlain was, almost single-handedly going against the greatest team in basketball history - and actually winning a couple of titles himself. ------------------
They don't call him, "The Dream" for nothing. 1.) Hakeem "The Dream" Olajuwon 2.) Wilt Chamberlain 3.) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 4.) Bill Russell 5.) Arvydis Sabonis (pre-injury) Shaq doesn't deserve to be on any list, unless it's a list of your most prominent gorillas. Without all of that mass, he's got very little game. I would also like to say that I think Tim Duncan will very easily make this list someday, and already has more moves than all of them but #1. I had to go with Sabonis because: a.) He really did have all the moves before the injuries. Most everyone really missed out on quite a phenomenal player. b.) He's just so damned cool. ------------------ "I'll take a Dream Shake for two, please."
Well I did see him play. And yes he had great players around him. But he made those players even better. Just like Hakeem did in his prime. If one of his teammate's guys got passed him Hakeem rejected him. Hakeem's presence in the middle allowed his teamates to be more daring and to concentrate more on offense. Well Russell in his time was even more of a presence. He was an intimidtor and clutch scorer and when the game was on the line he was their go to man. Ask Red or Heinsohn watch some of his old footage against wilt and see how he outsmarted and outplayed a more talented player. Just like Hakeem did to Shaq! Yes and in the end he won and to me that is the most important criteria. How can you not acknowledge 10 chmpionships. He was the leader of those Championships and possibly the most dominating presence in NBA period. Time and time again he beat out Wilt. Maybe not alwys statistically but were it really counts in the win column. ------------------
I have alot of respect for Russell but put him on other team, say the Clippers. Would he have still won 10 championships? ------------------ Houston Rockets Forever!! In Rudy We Trust
I would have a hard time putting Dream in the same class as Russell, just because Russell is currently remembered as one of the top 5 of all time (Along w/ Wilt & MJ). We don't know how Dream will be remembered yet. Yeah Wilt has 2 championships but so did Isiah and there are not many people who remember Isiah as better than Magic. For the time we can remember Dream as the greatest center of the 90's and as a champion. To compare him to Russell isn't possible yet. ------------------
Sure, Russell won more than anybody, no one is denying that. What Cassell is trying to point out is that he had a lot of freaking help. Consider the talent that the Blazers had last year, and most people were picking them to win it all. Rumors surfaced about Duncan, Hill & McGrady all playing on the same team and everyone was ready to tag the dynasty label on Orlando. I personally don't see how you can't win in the 1950's/60's when the best talent in the league is playing on your team. 9 Hall of famers on one squad is unbelievable......how can you attempt to give all the credit to one man. Russell was great and a pioneer for big men, but he only won so many titles because he had so much darn help. Do you doubt that the other 8 hall of famers would have won a few back then without him? I know the Rockets wouldn't have won squat without Dream. I like the comment about giving more credit to Wilt, who still competed without the talented supporting cast. And why do people keep listing Shaq over Moses Malone?? ------------------
This supporting cast theory crap has got to go. Wilt won 2 titles, one with the 1966-67 76ers and one with the 1971-72 Lakers (Russell retired in 1969). His first title was won in the 1966-67 season with the 76ers. On that roster (along with Wilt were: Hal Greer Chet Walker Wally Jones Luscious Jackson Billy Cunnungham-future NBA head coach Larry Costello-future NBA head coach Matt Goukas-future NBA head coach Bob Weiss-future NBA head coach His other Title was won in the 1971-72 season. The Laker roster was as follows: Gail Goodrich Jerry West Jim Mcmillan Happy Hairston Elgin Baylor Pat Riley-future NBA head coach You young guys won't recognize some of these names, but they were some of the best (and smartest) players from that era. ------------------ "Get up, stand up. Stand up for your right"-Bob Marley
Yeah, but that's the 70's. When Russell won his titles, most of the leagues top talent played for Boston. They even had their own farm system. I think the talent was more spread throughout the league in the 70's. ------------------
Let's examine those rosters. #1 - having a "future head coach" doesn't make him a good player, unless his name was Lenny Wilkens. Pat Riley played for the Rockets, too, back before he had the hair shellack going. He was never more than a role player. On the '67 team, Wilt had Hal Greer on his team, a future HOFer. Walker and Billy Cunningham were pretty good, too. But Wilt averaged 24 PPG, 24 RPG, and 8 assists that season. Not too shabby. And they beat Cincy (with the big O and Jerry Lucas), Boston (with Russell and the rest of those 60s Celtics) and San Fran (with Brent Barry's dad and Nate Thurmond) for the title. Elgin Baylor played 9 games for those 71-72 Lakers, before retiring. Don't tell me he was a factor! Jerry West - "The Logo" was a pretty good player. But despite his clutch rep, he never won the title w/o Wilt, "The Ladies Man." So, Wilt had 1 future HOFer playing with him on each championship. Not quite the support that Russell had (*still more than Dream ever had*). Anyway, my point wasn't really to prop Wilt up - only to tear down the hype surrounding Russell, who I think is unfairly rated above Dream in everyone's eyes. ------------------
Old Man Rock, I bow to your superior level of experience, having seen basketball in the 60s (wasn't even born yet!). But I didn't hear you deny that Russell had some serious help. He was a GREAT rebounder (only led the league 3 times in his career though) and undoubtably a "coach on the floor" in the most literal sense of the word. But I still think that his #s bear out the charge that he was a great defensive player, but a limited offensive player. Didn't really have the longevity of some other greats. And I wonder if, given his size, he would have held up in the pivot in today's game - did he have the shooting range and athleticism of a Hakeem, which is absolutely neccessary for today's sub-7 foot C? ------------------
To me, you have to dominate on both ends of the floor to be one of the very best ever. It's been established in this thread and others that Bill Russell did not dominate offensively. His ft% was awful, his fg% was terrible for somebody of his size and athletic ability playing in that era, and his ppg was very low as well. You have to come up with more than the "ring" argument. Name another power forward with more rings than Dennis Rodman (probably someone on the Celtics actually). I don't think anyone's listing Rodman as the best power forward ever. I also don't think its possible to establish that Russell was any better defensively than Hakeem was. For one, look at the average height back then. Hakeem dominated defensively in an era of much taller and more athletic players, there's no disputing that. He also has a higher career playoff ppg avg than Jabbar, Chamberlain, or Russell. 4chuckie -- " I would have a hard time putting Dream in the same class as Russell, just because Russell is currently remembered as one of the top 5 of all time (Along w/ Wilt & MJ). We don't know how Dream will be remembered yet." Who cares how he's "remembered"? Remembered by whom? So you're saying that I have to sit around and wait for someone else to tell me how good Hakeem was, before I can put him in a certain class. Why not just form your own conclusion? Can't you remember him yourself? Others are supporting their claim of Hakeem's greatness with facts, and you're saying you can't form an opinion on it because someone else (pundits?) hasn't told you it's okay yet. I don't get where you're coming from. ------------------ A little bit better than I used to be
This argument is like comparing Babe Ruth to Mark McGuire. You just can't compare players from different eras. You said you saw Dream play. You didn't see the impact Russell had on games. He dominated games defensively. Simply put, those Celtic teams would not have won all those championships without Russell. ------------------ "Get up, stand up. Stand up for your right"-Bob Marley
