"Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to greater danger. It works the same in any country." Any Takers???
Hey Khan, We did this one pretty done back around the initial Iraq 'debate.' You'll find several of the righties round here deny he even said it.
Ouch!! For those who Don't remember all the War threads, the answer is -Hermann Goering (1893 - 1946) Commander-in-Chief of the Luftwaffe, President of the Reichstag, Prime Minister of Prussia and Hitler's designated successor The second in command of the Third Reich
I don't know why they would deny it, it was in Gustave Gilbert's book as a direct quote, and Gilbert certainly had access and did speak with Goering. To me, there's no reason to believe Hermann Goering didn't say it.
Now Lets not get all riled up here and I don't want to hear that I am comparing Bush with Hitler or any nonsense like that. Maybe it just shows that the Nazi's were the best at understanding human nature and swaying public opinion in their favor. I just think that rampant nationalism that equates not supporting wars and lack of patriotism is dangerous.
I totally agree. It seems that this administration wants to label anyone who doesn't toe the line and follow them in lock step as not patriotic. Now, I am the biggest America supporter I know, which is why I dissent on the topics I do. You're not to be so blind with patriotism that you can't face reality. Wrong is wrong, no matter who does it or says it. Malcolm X (1925 - 1965)
Khan, Didn't mean to slap you down or anything. That quote was my signature for about a month back then. I agree with everything you say here. Don't expect too much back from the other side other than 'I hear France is nice this time of year.'
The Irony of your 'other side' comment is that usually I am on that other side. I am very supportive of Bush and the Republican financial and economic reforms. I am wary of social services programs and their cost vs. efficiency. I was very much for the War in Afghanistan, yet I simply have not seen any conclusive evidence that there was threat enough to attack and take Iraq. I am angered how the emphasis has changed from weapons of mass destruction to liberation of Iraq. I agree that Saddam is as vile as it gets in regards to international dictators, but he is on the same footing as Mubarak in Egypt and the Saudi Royals who we support, as well as many, many nations in Africa and South America. If we started liberating peoples, we have a long road ahead. I am not an isolationist, but a realist. I believe you trade freely with the rest of the world and don't get involved with their politics and lead by example. What we have seen is that demand for US goods and services is falling in much of the world based on US foreign policy (yes i'm making an assumption). Its Ironic again, because us corporations and people's tax dollars are what give the government its ability to have the best weapons etc.. If we are adversely affecting our future global sales ability, we are limiting our future political and military potential in the world.
F.D, That's what I meant by the other side. Wasn't talking bout right/left. Many thoughtful people on the right have questioned the urgency of the Iraqi threat, before and after the strikes. They were relegated to the 'side' of the hippie freaks by the fer us/agin us folks in the White House. You were, too. Talk too much about this kinda stuff and you can expect folks with whom you normally share politics to tell you obviously hate this country and should probably leave it. Reason enough to vote Dem in the next election. There's no bigger issue than those raised in this sort of 'debate.'
I'll just go ahead and get the standard response to this out of the way... Comparing the United States with Nazi Germany is disgusting, innacurate, and insulting. Are we rounding up Jews into camps and sending them to gas chambers? Didn't think so...And if we're not doing exactly what the Nazis did, in every area, comparing us to them in any way is just plain wrong. The only thing I left out is to include a or two in there somewhere, but I'm not nearly as skilled at that as some... Of course, this kind of mindset makes any kind of two-way converstaion on the matter impossible. As the US doesn't meet a certain criteria, even if the criteria, as in this case, has nothing to do with the comparison, those supporting these tactis from the current administration won't even look at the similarities. So all we're going to get on this is a bunch of us agreeing with each other how scary the commonalities are... And in support of Batman's point, this kind of rhetoric was a lot more evident right around the beginning of the war, when he and I , to name a couple, were repeatedly called traitors, USA haters, Saddam lovers, etc. because we disagreed with those who said we had enough just cause to go to war...I was even told by one charming fellow that he wished I would go off to Iraq to spend time with my buddy Saddam, and while there he really hoped I'd get hit with a missile and killed, said missile being painted " Hello and Goodbye from the USA." Now being a student of history as I am, the similarities between that kind of jingoistic thinking and Nazi Germany were immediately apparent...but mentioning it only further emphasiszed my desire to be an Iraqi, in some peoples' minds...Of course, the fact that I questioned our intel, our ability to remain objective, or our legitimacy in telling the world to trust us re: 9-11 and WMD has, over time, been clearly proven to have been just another of my many examples of USA hating, and it also stands to prove that I and those like me were the ones suffering from a clear and overwhelming bias...
You just feel animosity b/c you're Muslim. Here me out. We'll just clean up all of those areas, install some Pizza Huts and some Coca-Cola factories. As a republican, you have to admit... everybody likes Pizza Huts. Quit bogarting the Pizza Huts FD Khan. You came to our country and now you're trying to close up shop for everybody else that's trying to eat cheese filled crusts. Forget about the old culture. It will be assimilated. You cannot deny your old compatriots what you yourself relish... lack of services, your women oppressed... but not too oppressed, long smog filled commutes, uniform lawns and no cultural identity. Pizza Power!
To me, the bottom line is this: Questioning authority is a right we have as American citizens. Our country was built on it, among other things. One of the things that makes this country great is the ability to question the government without fear of being locked up, tortured, or even murdered. Not questioning the government and instead blindly following and accepting everything that is said in Washington as fact, is, in my opinion, as un-American as you can get, regardless of which party is in power.
No, but we are rounding up black and brown people and sending them to prison, in some cases for years on the word of a single informant. We have 2 million people in jail right now, over half for nonviolent drug offenses, and 75% of them are black or hispanic. I FULLY admit that it does not even come close to the level of the Nazis, but that is what I am trying to avoid by speaking out against some of the policies this administration (and the government in general) is pushing. It is hyperbole, but it is still a valid analogy.
Ummmm....I agree? Someone wanna 'splain my position on this, so I don't sound all self-righteous, please...I got all of my daily self-righteous stuff out in my last post....
What the hell do you mean you came to 'our' country and my 'old compatriots'?? I was born in New York and have lived here my old life. My 'women' oppressed? They are just as much your women as they are mine, there are Christians and Muslims in Iraq. Tariq Aziz, Saddam's foreign minister was Christian.
If your trying to find some sort of causation for my beliefs or trying to insult me while covering it with some humor its not working. I can bet i've done much more for this country than you can even dream of sport.
