1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

[Guardian] Does India have a right to invade Britain?

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by wnes, Jul 13, 2006.

  1. wnes

    wnes Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2003
    Messages:
    8,196
    Likes Received:
    19
    Does India have a right to invade Britain?
    Roger Howard

    July 12, 2006 04:36 PM

    http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/roger_howard/2006/07/does_india_have_a_right_to_inv.html

    Although nobody has as yet claimed responsibility for Tuesday's attacks in Mumbai, in which hundreds have died, it seems just possible that British extremists may have had a hand in them somewhere. After all, many such Islamist radicals are known to have travelled to Pakistan to visit training camps there, join the Kashmiri jihad and perhaps share expertise of the sort that two of the 7/7 bombers, Shehhzad Tanweer and Mohammed Sidique Khan, had built up by the time they travelled there together at the end of 2004.

    If we just suppose for a moment that British citizens were involved, then try and imagine your reaction if Indian politicians now began to openly demand radical changes to the political system in this country, or for sweeping reforms to the way our schools and hospitals are administered. Unless there is more democracy in Britain, these imaginary voices in India might demand, and unless minorities are given more voice, better job prospects and a higher standard of living, then India will be at risk of further attack from disgruntled and disaffected British citizens. It is therefore in the India's national interest to change the way of life in this country, or even invade us if its armed forces only had the capability.

    Of course such calls sound ludicrous. But it is just such claims that President Bush has been making over the past few years and which, even after three years after the Iraqi calamity began, are now being actively championed in some influential quarters.

    For although "neoconservatism" is widely portrayed to be on the retreat, a wholly discredited doctrine harboured only by a handful of extremists who lack the humility to admit their mistakes, the truth, unfortunately, is not quite so simple. What have really been discredited are the means by which neoconservative ends are pursued: for the moment at least, the use of military force to shape the institutions and values of the outside world is no longer such an easy option.

    The doctrine's essential premise - that the fate of freedom and democracy elsewhere in the world is integral to the national interest of the United States - remains soundly undefeated. The neoconservatives, in short, have merely changed their methods and, in some cases, their terms of self-description, being more likely to call themselves "supporters of freedom" and "interventionists".

    Consider, most obviously, the recent National Security Strategy document, published in March, whose underlying goals are baldly stated at the onset: "it is the policy of the United States", the document opens by saying, "to seek and support democratic movements and institutions in every nation and culture, with the ultimate goal of ending tyranny in our world". Such claims echo the familiar argument that came so fashionable after 9/11: the fact that 15 of the 19 plane hijackers who struck the World Trade Center were nationals of a highly repressive state, Saudi Arabia, has subsequently been said to be starkly illustrative of the interrelationship of freedom and democracy in different parts of the world.

    Alarmingly, however, it is not just in the White House and the corridors of political power where this neoconservative premise remains undefeated. In wider academic circles, too, the argument that global democracy is vital to America's national interest attracts a powerful following. So in his new work After the Neocons, Professor Fukuyama distances himself from the advocates of the Iraqi invasion but nowhere rejects the underlying premise upon which they built their case for war against Saddam.

    This week a group of British neoconservatives, the Henry Jackson Society, is launching their own manifesto, The British Moment. Yet its members need to recognise the fundamental problems with their assertion that the fate of freedom in our own country is part and parcel of freedom elsewhere in the world. Above all, if the US has a right to interfere in the domestic affairs other countries, then other sovereign states must equally have a corresponding right of intervention in order to pursue their own interests. But such a consequence would not only be unpalatable to Washington but would equally lead to a state of global anarchy.

    So even if British nationals were involved in Tuesday's attacks, then the Indians plainly would not, after all, have any right to attack the United Kingdom, or try to change our political institutions, cultural values and way of life even though over the past decade or so a sizeable number of British Muslims have long joined the armed struggle in Kashmir, and a much larger number have subsidised it. Nor does the unsuccessful bid of the British suicide bomber, Omar Khan Sharif, to kill Israeli citizens in 2003 give Tel Aviv a right to similarly intervene over here. If it were ever possible at all, any such bid would merely stir up a furious nationalist anger and create immensely powerful currents of anti-Indianism and anti-semitism.

    The fact that events in one country have always inevitably had repercussions in others is instead a necessary justification only for cooperation between governments, for international surveillance of existing or would-be national enemies and for well-organised domestic policing.
     
  2. tigermission1

    tigermission1 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2002
    Messages:
    15,557
    Likes Received:
    17
    Using the Bush Doctrine, yes they do. Britain might just be the single biggest harbor of terrorists, extremists, and war criminals in the entire world in that they let many of those people live in their midst.
     
  3. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2002
    Messages:
    57,791
    Likes Received:
    41,228
    By all means, let India attempt to invade Great Britain. After the full weight of NATO crushes something straight out of, "The Mouse That Roared," Pakistan and China can pick up the leftovers, and have a good snack.


    Come on... someone please put the author under a doctor's care, and spare India from such nonsense. They have enough grief to deal with right now, without having to see such dribble reprinted in their newspapers.



    Keep D&D Civil.
     
  4. Saint Louis

    Saint Louis Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 1999
    Messages:
    4,260
    Likes Received:
    0
    The only way India could attack Britian is through the Internet.
     
  5. Ubiquitin

    Ubiquitin Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2001
    Messages:
    19,567
    Likes Received:
    14,569
    The point is not that it improbable, but if the policy would still seem correct by those who supported the Neoconservative model of the world.
     
  6. wnes

    wnes Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2003
    Messages:
    8,196
    Likes Received:
    19
    Sigh. Is your sarcasm merter broken or your reading comprehension suddenly ceases to function? Is the author's satrirical undertone completely lost on you?

    :rolleyes:
     
  7. Deji McGever

    Deji McGever יליד טקסני

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 1999
    Messages:
    4,013
    Likes Received:
    952
    Didn't Colonel Kaddafi say that if America really wanted to round up terrorists, the US should be going to Paris and London?
     
  8. tigermission1

    tigermission1 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2002
    Messages:
    15,557
    Likes Received:
    17
    LOL! Yes he did, and for once he made a good point...
     
  9. HayesStreet

    HayesStreet Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 1999
    Messages:
    8,507
    Likes Received:
    181
    I think there are serious problems with the article. He starts with the admittedly improbably Indian invasion of Britain, then points out military action in support of neoconservatism no longer has support, then concludes we should be against neoconservatism. If military options are no longer on the table then the scenario which sets up his article is not valid and irrelevant to a consideration of whether a non-militarily spread neoconservatist agenda is supportable. Further it is plain silly to suggest that state's influencing internal affairs of other states breeds anarchy. It sounds like something straight out of PRC press release. The simple fact is that there are literally thousands of current practices which serve this function including the most obvious and blatant route which is the lobbyist.
     
  10. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2000
    Messages:
    19,198
    Likes Received:
    15,368
    Not that it has any merit as an argument, but on a purely technical basis I believe that one of the prime neocon ideas is 'if you have the power, you should use it where you can to reshape the world in your image'.

    Therefore, an invasion of Brtian would fail the test becuse they couldn't pull it off, but the U.S. invasion would pass because the U.S. could pull it off.
     
  11. Sishir Chang

    Sishir Chang Member

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2000
    Messages:
    11,064
    Likes Received:
    8
    So India should be intervening in British politics through lobbying? Howabout campaign financing? Maybe Castro's regime or the Arab countries should be intervening in US politics.
     
  12. Sishir Chang

    Sishir Chang Member

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2000
    Messages:
    11,064
    Likes Received:
    8
    If you go by GW Bush's speeches particularly the second innaugural it pretty much says that.
     
  13. insane man

    insane man Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2003
    Messages:
    2,892
    Likes Received:
    5
    israel has that market cornered.
     
  14. lpbman

    lpbman Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2001
    Messages:
    4,240
    Likes Received:
    816
    Really? You don't think the Saudi's have anything to say about that?
     
  15. insane man

    insane man Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2003
    Messages:
    2,892
    Likes Received:
    5
    saudis have close personal relationships with bush as well as many in their administrations and obviously reep the benefits of having oil. but they dont even have the imagination to dream about having an AIPAC of their own. c'mon now.
     
  16. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2002
    Messages:
    57,791
    Likes Received:
    41,228
    They can and they do.



    Keep D&D Civil.
     
  17. HayesStreet

    HayesStreet Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 1999
    Messages:
    8,507
    Likes Received:
    181
    You don't think it happens? How about Chavez? Do you think his PR campaign and his 'give gas to the poor' promotion is an attempt to affect the US agenda? That seems slighty naive to me. Every country has diplomatic missions with specific agenda's toward enhancing their own interests within the US. Although I'd also point out that neoconservatism isn't soley based on self interest - a large component is that people elsewhere deserve to be free and enjoy the rights we do. I'm not sure how some of these other situations would parallel that thinking.
     
  18. IROC it

    IROC it Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 1999
    Messages:
    12,629
    Likes Received:
    89

    "I say... why is this dreadful technical support not responding? Those bloody Indian fellows must be attacking again." :p
     
  19. Sishir Chang

    Sishir Chang Member

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2000
    Messages:
    11,064
    Likes Received:
    8
    I agree that Chazez's move was to influence US political opinion along with moves by the Saudis but if I'm not mistaken foreign donors can't give money directly to US campaigns. Further recall the hubub when it was rumored that PRC money had gone to the Clinton campaign. I highly doubt most Americans, especially self-proclaimed neo-conservatives will be happy with foreign involvement in US politics. Anyway my point is that you're making lobbying and foreign intervention into a countries internal politics acceptable, while it happens to a certain level in the even the US its not something that most Americans especially conservatives would find very acceptable.

    Also regarding the Israel lobby that is mostly composed of American supporters of Israel and not Israelis.
     
  20. insane man

    insane man Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2003
    Messages:
    2,892
    Likes Received:
    5
    how is chavez relevant? the point wasn't to spew rhetoric in reference to other countries. the point that was being discussed was to not specifically lobby etc other nations. simply because that is interfering with their own sovereignty. remember the whole issue with china during clinton's second term?

    captain semantics should pick better analogies.
     

Share This Page