... There is a horrid but obvious dynamic going on here: At some deep level, Europeans, European politicians, European culture is aware that almost without exception every European nation was deeply complicit in Hitler’s genocide. Some manned the death camps, others stamped the orders for the transport of the Jews to the death camps, everyone knew what was going on—and yet the Nazis didn’t have to use much if any force to make them accomplices. For the most part, Europeans volunteered. That is why "European civilization" will always be a kind of oxymoron for anyone who looks too closely at things, beginning with the foolish and unnecessary slaughters of World War I, Holocaust-scale slaughter that paved the way for Hitler’s more focused effort. And so, at some deep level, there is a need to blame someone else for the shame of "European civilization." To blame the victim. To blame the Jews. ... Isn’t it interesting that you didn’t see any "European peace activists" volunteering to "put their bodies on the line" by announcing that they would place themselves in real danger—in the Tel Aviv cafés and pizza parlors, favorite targets of the suicide bombers. Why no "European peace activists" at the Seders of Netanya or the streets of Jerusalem? Instead, "European peace activists" do their best to protect the brave sponsors of the suicide bombers in Ramallah. ... http://www.observer.com/pages/story.asp?ID=5715
Maybe because Europeans have seen more bombings of citizens in recent memory, and think that Israel is simply not trying hard enough for peace. I think Israel is a lot to blame for what is going on over there, they hardly seem like they truly want peace, or at least their government doesn't. Actions speak louder than words. DD
Both sides are to blame, and nothing will happen until a new generation of leadership takes power...a generation that knows violence leads absolutely nowhere.
By the way, the whole article is interesting. It looks at the possibilty of a 2nd Holocaust in the future.
anti-semitism . .. is that a special type of racism racism against Jewish folx? How is it different than plain ole racism? How come folx seem to be more alarmed by it than plain ole racism? Racism on the rise. . . I could have told u that Rocket River
It is an interesting article. Anti-semitism, or let's say anti-jewish sentiments have always existed in Europe. It is fueled by misinformation from generation to generation and propoganda. What we rarely hear about is Synogauges being set on fire all over Europe when it actually happens quite regularly. Jewish graveyards have been tainted with. But how can you stop a hatred that has lasted for hundreds of years? I don't think that the world would put up with another Holocaust now. Being Jewish, we have our ways to fight back. Sharon does feel that the only reason Israel is under attack is because it is a Jewish state. He is fighting to stop a Holocaust 2, because if many Palestinians/Arabs had their way, there would be no Israel and no Jews in the middle east. I agree with him to a certain extent.
You guys are right. "I feel bad for the plight of the Palestinians; I believe they deserve a state. But they had a state: They were part of a state, a state called Jordan, that declared war on the state of Israel, that invaded it in order to destroy it—and lost the war. There are consequences to losing a war, and the consequences should at least in part be laid at the feet of the three nations that sought and lost the war. One sympathizes with the plight of the Palestinians, but one wonders what the plight of the Israelis might have been had they lost that war. One doesn’t envision spacious homes and ping-pong for their leaders."
Maybe if people would get their heads out of their collective A$$es and realize that religion is the main cause of all of this we could move on as a human race. DD
The illegal and immoral occupation of 3 to 4 million Palestinians by present day Israelis is wrong. Rreference to the evils of the Holocaust doesn't change this. Two wrongs don't make a right. Likewise the understandable fears of a Second Holocaust which are constantly played to, do not justify not doing the right thing now.
There are several interesting aspects to this thread, not to say interesting; 1) that Europe was partially responsible for the Holocaust. Undeniably...of course, so were we, and by we, I mean everyone, not just the US...Canada, America, Britain, France, etc...Here's how; See the intial Final Solution wasn't extermination camps...it was deportation. The Germans tried to unlaod their 'Jewsih problem' on every nation they could think of, going so far as to ship them out...many got as far as New York Harbor, Halifax, and the Isle of Wight...and we, and I mean all of us, turned them back, saying 'not our problem'. Some times we did offer to take them off of Hitler's hands for an extravagant price, but usually we just said no. We none of us have clean hands on this, but we all try and overlook that aspect of history in the wake of the condemnation of the German people. The fact that many who died in camps had seen Ellis Island or Big Ben before being sent back to Hell is something we'd rather not be brought up in polite conversation. 2) the history of Anti-Sematism...anyone here ever read The Merchant of Venice...or Ivanhoe...or many others? We have done something interesting with the Holocaust...we have used it to purge our memories of the degree of anti-smeatism which was commonplace throughout the western world prior to WWII. Nothing that dramatic and systematic had happened before, but wholesale anti-semetic uprisings, killing sprees, witchhunts etc. were a common occurence during the middle ages. Consider this ; Obstensibly based on the idea that Jesus Christ had been killed by the Jews ( and oddly overlooking the fact that he was himself Jewish) anti-Sematism in the Chrisitan dominated Middle Ages ( sic) was so endemic that it became illegal for Jews to have a proffession . yes, you read that correctly...they were prohibited by law from any means of earning a proffessional living...no doctors...no lawyers...no apothecaries...no barbers...nothing. This was church sanctioned, by the way. So over time Jewish men with intelligence and a desire to improve their state turned to the one option open to them; money lending...Now this was a tough job for a Jew, as routinely the law would chuckle and look the other way when a gentile refused to pay back a Jew the money he'd leant him...and, amazingly, over time the Jewish reputation of being tight-fisted grew into socialized acceptance. Think about that...we let them do nothing else, and then condemed them for doing just that. Amazing... So, as I said, anti-sematism is neithier a new problem, nor a German or European one...there were anti-Jewsih rallies in downtown New York City and Toronto, among other places, in the 1920s...and take a look some time at the hit list for the KKK. 3) The whole European Civilization aspect is ludicrous,particularly for an American...we owe our existence largely to that civilization, and the flaws in that argument are too numerous to mention; they did away with slavery before we did...they didn't have something as appaling as Segragation, let alone up to the last 40 years...etc. But the worse one is the war one...Doesn't hold water..consider this; Hitler declared war on us, not because of Europe, but because of a non-European Japanese/US conflict. And we fought it out with him on their soil, as they were already fighting him...to blame them for having the war on their field, as somehow being a part of their culture is ridiculous. And also...what nation, do you suppose, has both been involved in the most wars in the last century, and had the least period of peace between each one? Hint: It's not a European nation.
Any increase of anti-semitism in Europe or anywhere is wrong. Likewise any rise in hatred or discrimination of Muslims or Arabs is wrong also even if it is in Israel or the USA.
I am writing this while traveling in Europe, and I am particularly disturbed by visible vestiges of anti-Semitism from the past and also by clear evidence of its ugly re-emergence. Synagogue burnings, cemetery desecrations, vandalism against Jewish businesses and street gangs beating up Jews, official government warnings that Jews should protect themselves from violence by not wearing any "identifying" marks or garb, anti-Semitic propagandizing and pamphleteering, vicious editorial attacks on the Jews, trade union threats to boycott and embargo Israeli imports -- all of these combine to create a hateful anti-Jewish climate in Europe not seen since the end of the Third Reich. ..George Will
1) On your first point, I can't see how not accepting Jewish people being kicked out makes America part of the Holocaust. Secondly, the way Europe was complicit is that they literally stood by and watched it and helped in some ways. America did nothing close to that. 2) I'm sure there has been anti-Semitism in America in the past and present. However, it doesn't compare to the degree that Europe suffers from it. It doesn't make sense to me to pull examples from a long time ago without acknowledging that things have changed. 3) America is still different from Europe in many important ways. Just because we are related doesn't mean we are the same in regards to Jewish people.
Uh...they actually had another state...called Palestine, so named after their culture, you may have heard of them, the Phillistines? Came over to Canaan, Gazza, etc. about 1200 BC. And were still there when we, the Western powers that be dicided that a people who had been there for 2000 years beofre the united States existed should move out and make way for another people we felt guilty about. SO we told them to move, and you're right, some of them moved to Jordan, as they had no other choice...oh, and while we moved them we also declared that we didn't recognize them as a people, therefore they couldn't even make an official complaint for being the victims of a silent war. And the fact that the nation that allowed some of them to settle their lost a war with the US supplied/backed new state of Israel somehow in your mind means they ought to just accpet what happened!?!?!? Now, as pointed out in another thread, I do not balme the Israelis for their attitude since then. They have been surrounded by enemies that want them to cease to exist, and restore Palestine. Whether or not those people have an argument doesn't really matter when they're coming at you with tanks and guns, and israel has had to adopt an essentially Spratn military mindset just to survive...of course that alo makes it understandable that the surrounding nations see Israel as a threat, and the US support of Israel as the random and unprovoked creation of a rogue nation in their midst...and so on...I pride myself on being a pretty diplomatically aware fell, but I honestly haven't got a clue how to resolve a situation where both sides in the fight were right, and have done wrong because of it... I blame the powers that went about things the way they did, sort of like the half-hazzard amalgamation of cultures we called Yugoslavia, for the sake of easier definition. That whole period saw some incredibly inept and downright arrogant forced dipomacy and nation building by the UN, US, Britian, etc...and people are still paying the price for it.
"Make no mistake of it, the Palestinians are victims of history as well as the Jews. The last thing the nations of Europe wanted to do was the right thing, which would be to restore the Jews to their stolen homes, and so they acquiesced in the creation of a Jewish state and then did nothing to make it viable for either the Jews or the Palestinians, preferring to wash their hands of the destruction: let the Semites murder each other and blame the Jews, the Semites they were more familiar with hating."
