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Gorbachev's Sermon on the Mount.

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by glynch, Nov 11, 2009.

  1. glynch

    glynch Member

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    If only Obama could have the guts to say: "no" to the war makers. 75% of his own party opposes escalation and about 52% of the population at large. If only he had the balls to fade the heat from the neo-cons and the generals who are wedded to senselsess wars.
    ********
    Gorbachev’s Sermon on the Mount
    by Robert Scheer

    "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God." That biblical quotation certainly applies to Mikhail Gorbachev, a man not honored enough for the example he set and whose past practices and recent cautions about Afghanistan should be heeded by Barack Obama. Or, on a secular note, if the Sermon on the Mount doesn't cut it for you, take German Chancellor Angela Merkel's praise for the former Soviet leader at the ceremony marking the fall of the Berlin Wall, which he helped destroy: "You courageously allowed things to happen, and that was much more than we could have expected."

    The hero's reception granted Gorbachev when he accompanied the German leader across the Bornholmer Street bridge to mark the 20th anniversary of the end of the city's division was credit long overdue. As The New York Times reported: "More than 1,000 people lined the bridge Monday night under gray skies and a steady drizzle to hear the chancellor speak, but their loudest cheers came when she thanked Mr. Gorbachev for the reforming attitude he brought to the Soviet leadership that helped make the events of that historic night possible." The crowd, chanting "Gorby, Gorby, Gorby," understood that he had done something unique for a world leader: He admitted the error of his system's ways and radically reversed its course.

    The surrender of immense political power, personal as well as international in scope, is something we never expect from leaders, but Gorbachev set a model of self-sacrifice for a larger purpose that one wishes others would follow. How rare in history for a leader of such great standing to surrender his position, along with its abundance of personal perquisites, for the larger common good. How unexpected for the leader of a military colossus to turn swords into plowshares.

    That is what Gorbachev did, beginning with his bold outreach to Western leaders including Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher, prompting the latter to say, "I like Mr. Gorbachev; we can do business together." The British prime minister influenced President Reagan to take a similarly open stance, and when Gorbachev reciprocated, the Cold War effectively came to an end. Gorbachev's words were followed by actions, beginning with suspension of the scheduled deployment of intermediate-range nuclear weapons. That was followed with an even bolder proposal to cut both the Soviet and U.S. nuclear arsenals by half and then act to eliminate them altogether. Most important for the current moment was Gorbachev's decisive moves to reduce the Soviet troop presence in Afghanistan, followed by his 1988 announcement of the full withdrawal of troops from that country.

    Gorbachev drew on his experience in a CNN interview Sunday during which he again played the part of peacemaker, urging Obama to pull troops out of Afghanistan. "I think that our experience deserves attention," the former Soviet president said. He recommended that the U.S., in the hope of bringing an end to "the long suffering of the [Afghan] people," focus on "dialogue" and that "withdrawal from Afghanistan should be the goal."

    Unfortunately, it seems from media leaks that President Obama is moving in the opposite direction. The speculation now is that he will increase U.S. forces by a number slightly less than the 40,000 that Gen. Stanley McChrystal has requested, a decision that would make no sense at all. If the goal is, as McChrystal's report defined it, to rebuild Afghan civil society from the ground up, something on the order of the half-million troops that were dispatched to Vietnam will be required. But that cannot be done without a draft, and we all know that outcome would not be politically acceptable to either the Democratic or Republican party.

    Nor is such nation-building advisable, even if the American public and the treasury would support it. Our war in Afghanistan is no more warranted than the one the Soviets waged. Ironically, they were opposing Muslim fanatics we supplied with Stinger rockets and whose descendants we now blame for terrorism. In the name of fighting Soviet imperialism, our CIA recruited the worst of the worst and called them freedom fighters until we renamed them terrorists. We got it terribly wrong then, and yet we still insist that we know what we are doing in that country.

    When Gorbachev came to power he, like Obama, inherited a war that was not in the interest of his nation. If the response of a Soviet dictator was to end it, might we not be justified in expecting the enlightened president of a democratic society to do the same?


    http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/11/11-6

    http://www.thenation.com/doc/20091019/polk/2
     
    #1 glynch, Nov 11, 2009
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2009
  2. mc mark

    mc mark Member

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    Obama's response this evening was encouraging --

    President Barack Obama does not plan to accept any of the Afghanistan war options presented by his national security team, pushing instead for revisions to clarify how and when U.S. troops would turn over responsibility to the Afghan government, a senior administration official said Wednesday.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/11/11/official-obama-does-not-a_n_354784.html
     
  3. Space Ghost

    Space Ghost Member

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    In other words, he has no clue on what he's going to do.

    That is REAL encouraging. Guys are dying while he contemplates further on what to do. Indecisiveness is a quality trait in a president, I hear.
     
  4. A_3PO

    A_3PO Member

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    I am very glad Obama is being deliberate about adding more troops to Afghanistan. At this point, any thoughtful person should be grateful he didn't already sign off on the 40,000 troops before now. Just like in Iraq when the government didn't get serious until the Dems took Congress in 2006, the currant Afghan government must know the U.S. will NOT be an indefinite safety net in the face of rampant corruption. Obama MUST continually keep the heat on Karzai and cronies to keep them as uncomfortable as possible. If he fails to do so, support for the effort in Afghanistan will plummet even further, which would be a disaster. Obama can't just tell the public he authorized the increase "because the general said so".

    Spaceman, you are the one who has "no clue". It's a bad idea to make decisions before all the facts roll in. Big decisions regarding war require a president to solicit all the advice he can on all views before pulling the trigger. Our country learned that lesson in a costly way with our prior catastrophic disaster of a president. This is the kind of "change" that people voted for.

    Nice try glynch. Of course withdrawal is the goal, but now is definitely not the time. After 8 years of being neglected because of the ignorant Iraq blunder, we must give Afghanistan the attention it deserves or regret not doing so.
     
  5. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Member

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    I give Gorbachev a lot of credit but really he was somewhat forced into the choices he made. Gorbachev never really wanted to see the end of the Soviet Union but thought he was saving it. When he realized just how far gone things were events threatened to overtake him and the most he could do was see to a peaceful collapse. Like DeKlerk with Apartheid he had the wisdom to recognize that the system that he had come to head was doomed.

    Now if you are saying Obama needs to be more like Gorbachev I would say that even though things are bad we aren't anywhere like what the Soviet Union was. As for Afghanistan I will point out that we had different reasons for going into Afghanistan and are using a different strategy than the Soviets.

    Also before all of you making Gorbachev out to be a hero because he pulled the Soviet Army out of Afghanistan consider that the puppet state that they set up they left in power and continued to arm and financially support up until the USSR collapsed.
     
  6. Major

    Major Member

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    Making guts decisions without facts worked so well for Bush, right?
     
  7. glynch

    glynch Member

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    I guess you are impressed by Karzai and his mandate, but many would view him as a puppet that we are certainly going to arm and financially support once we leave.
     
  8. glynch

    glynch Member

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    The tide is turning and the American people will be free of the Afghanistan and Iraq adventures, despite the neo-cons and those "moderates' who largely adhere to their line. Too bad that it might take another couple of years for the .5% to suffer and another couple of years of wasted resources that could help the rest of the country.
    ******
    U.S. ambassador dissents on Afghan troop increase
    www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/11/AR2...
    sent by protect_democracy since 8 hours 3 minutes, published about 2 hours 46 minutes
    The U.S. ambassador in Kabul sent two classified cables to Washington in the last week expressing deep concerns about sending more U.S. troops to Afghanistan until Afghan President Hamid Karzai's government demonstrates that it is willing to tackle the corruption and mismanagement that has fueled the Taliban's rise, said senior U.S. officials. In his communications with Washington, Amb. Eikenberry has expressed deep reservations about Karzai's erratic behavior and Afghan government corruption, particularly in the senior ranks of the Karzai government, said U.S. officials familiar with the cables. Since Karzai was officially declared re-elected last week, U.S. diplomats have seen little sign that the Afghan president plans to address the problems of corruption they have raised repeatedly with him.

    http://www.buzzflash.net/story.php?id=1048252
     
  9. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Member

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    Obama may leave or he may not. I don't think its a good idea and I don't think its safer. I can't speak for moderates or others but I don't think its a good idea.

    If you are going to compare our situation in Afghanistan with the Soviets the Soviets put in much more resources into than we did and at the sametime were dealing with a dysfunctional economy while trying to maintain the USSR and the Warsaw Pact. We aren't anywhere near where Afghanistan, even with a 40K troop increase, will destroy us. Now its possible we might get to that point but at the moment I don't see that happening and anyway I don't think a strategy that would lead to us committing so much resources to Afghanistan would work. Anyway not even Gen. McChrystal is advocating all out war.

    Do you believe in there is such a thing as a just war?

    Your answer will largely frame my response to this but leaving that aside for a moment our strategy is vastly different than the Soviet strategy. Gen. McChrystal has said himself it is more important to protect Afghan civillians than it is to kill the Taliban, even at the increased risk to US soldiers. That is a far cry from the Soviet strategy of dropping mines shaped like toys so they could kill children.

    In your own link that it shows that the US is very concerned about Karzai. Again that is far different from the Soviet view of Taraki regime they left in charge. I doubt the Soviets were concerned about transparency and open voting by the Taraki regime.
     
  10. Rumblemintz

    Rumblemintz Member

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    It's the 'Nation Building' that we never learn our lesson with. Should've cleaned house and pulled out.

    I can appreciate the idea of it, but in reality it never works.
     
  11. bigtexxx

    bigtexxx Member

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    "Being deliberate". Pfft. He doesn't have a clue as to what to do. I wouldn't give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he's "being deliberate". He's poor at making decisions.
     
  12. A_3PO

    A_3PO Member

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    In the case of Afghanistan, please define what cleaning house and pulling out woud have entailed.
     
  13. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Member

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    So let me get this straight.

    Obama got criticized because he rushed through the stimulus bill and was being too decisive. Now he is getting criticized for being too deliberative.
     
    #13 rocketsjudoka, Nov 12, 2009
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2009
  14. Mulder

    Mulder Member

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    Exactly. The translation is Obama can't do anything right, even when he does something Repubs agree with.
     
  15. rhadamanthus

    rhadamanthus Member

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    Is it tiring to look so foolish all the time?
     
  16. Rumblemintz

    Rumblemintz Member

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    Wiping out the Taliban leadership and the getting the heck out. I know it's not the most humane thing to do, but is the role of our armed forces to protect American lives or the terrorist harboring people who poison our country with their opium export?

    Sorry if I don't have sympathy for them. I think a bit of Isolationism could do our country good. Why does it fall on us to solve the world's problems?
     
  17. orbb

    orbb Member

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    Wipe out a good chunk of the population just to get rid of the Taliban. Then brace ourselves as what's left of the nation turn into highly motivated terrorist groups. Not to mention pariah status not only in the islamic world, but the west too. Genius.
     
  18. glynch

    glynch Member

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    A good article re the case for pulling out of Afganistan. The case to stay has been well made with the continuing fear Bush fanned regarding terrorism The Taliban are, after all, Pashtuns, Muslims and either Afghans or Pakistanis, while we are none of these. Thus Pakistan can fight the Taliban more acceptably than we can, and because of its longstanding support of their movement, Pakistan can more easily bring the Taliban to the negotiating table. If we are smaand safe havens etc. It is repeated frequently
    *******
    An Open Letter to President Obama
    By William R. Polk

    This article appeared in the October 19, 2009 edition of The Nation.
    September 30, 2009


    William R. Polk: Mr. President, don't derail your presidency by bungling Afghanistan.

    Although we were separated by more than a decade, we lived a few steps apart in Hyde Park and were both professors at the University of Chicago. There I established the Center for Middle Eastern Studies and was also president of the Adlai Stevenson Institute of International Affairs. Before going to Chicago, during the Kennedy administration I was the member of the Policy Planning Council responsible for the Middle East and Central Asia. A Democrat, I was an early supporter of yours. So I hope you will accept the following analysis and proposals as being from a friend as well as a person with considerable experience on Afghanistan and Pakistan.

    In recent events I see an opportunity to accomplish American objectives while avoiding a course of action that could derail plans for your presidency, just as the Vietnam War ruined the presidency of Lyndon Johnson.

    According to press accounts, you are being told that America can win the war against the Taliban by employing overwhelming military power. Just like President Johnson's generals, yours keep asking for more troops. You are also being told that we can multiply our power with counterinsurgency tactics. Having made a detailed study (laid out in my book Violent Politics) of a dozen insurgencies, ranging from the American Revolution to Afghanistan, and fought by the British, French, Germans and Russians in America, Europe, Africa and Asia, I doubt that you are being well advised. When I was in government, we were told we could achieve victory in Vietnam by the same combination of force and counterinsurgency recommended by your advisers in Afghanistan. But as the editors of the Pentagon Papers concluded, the "attempt to translate the newly articulated theory of counter-insurgency into operational reality.... [through] a mixture of military, social, psychological, economic and political measures.... [were] marked by consistency in results as well as in techniques: all failed dismally."


    What actually brought all the insurgencies, including the one in Vietnam, to a halt was the withdrawal of the foreigners. Some foreigners left in defeat, but others left in ways that achieved their most important objectives. I believe you have an opportunity to achieve America's important objectives in Afghanistan.

    In Vietnam we never understood the Vietnamese and were defeated; so here I lay out the essential features of Afghanistan, Pakistan and Kashmir and then show how they set the context for a successful policy. I begin with Pakistan.

    Pakistan has long been obsessed with Kashmir, frightened of India and favorably inclined toward its Pashtun ethnic minority. To help Pashtun "freedom fighters" in the 1979-89 war against the Soviet Union, we funneled billions of dollars into Pakistan. Opposition to the Soviet Union was our motivation, but Pakistan had a different motivation: to protect Islam. This necessarily involved it not only in Afghanistan but also in Kashmir. Since Pakistan's capital, Islamabad, is about as close to the Indian-held capital of Kashmir, Srinagar, and to the Khyber Pass, which leads into Afghanistan, as New York is to Hartford, both Afghanistan and Kashmir appear to the Pakistanis to be nearly domestic issues.

    Kashmir is one of those legacies of the age of imperialism that still blight international relations. Today's problem was created in 1846, when the British sold Kashmir and its Muslim population to a Hindu who became its maharaja. Cruel and rapacious, he and his descendants were bitterly hated by Kashmiris. When the British were leaving South Asia in 1947, they assumed that because the people were mainly Muslim, Kashmir would be folded into what became Pakistan. But the maharaja opted for India. Despite a promise from Jawaharlal Nehru, then prime minister-designate of India, to Lord Louis Mountbatten, then viceroy of India, that a plebiscite would be held to ascertain the wishes of the Kashmiris, it has never been held. Ever since, the Indians have occupied Kashmir with half a million troops as a conquered enemy country. Under Indian rule, thousands of Kashmiris have been imprisoned, hundreds "disappeared" and almost everyone afflicted by lesser tyrannies. In shorthand terms, Kashmir is the Palestine of Central/South Asia. Pakistan and India have fought three wars and innumerable bloody engagements over Kashmir. The drain on the resources of both India and Pakistan has been immense. In part because of the destabilizing effects of this conflict, Pakistan has never developed a durable, coherent government. The only really solid Pakistani organization is the army. Civilian governments have been marked by massive corruption, ineptitude and fragility.

    There are many reasons for Pakistan's problems, but one stands out: it is an amalgam of ethnic/cultural nations. The British ruled the Punjab and Sind directly, but sought merely to divide and weaken the Pashtuns. That was the purpose of the Durand Line, which they drew in 1893 along the mountainous frontier. The effect of the line is that today about 25 million Pashtuns live in Pakistan and roughly 14 million live in Afghanistan. The Pashtuns wanted to form an independent nation-state in 1947 but were prevented from doing so. Until its recent military campaign against the Taliban in Swat, the Pakistanis made little attempt to integrate the Pashtuns, but because of them Pakistan has always been deeply affected by Afghanistan.

    Afghanistan has always baffled foreign invaders. After three attempts from 1842 to 1919 to rule it, the British gave up; at the end of a decade of costly war, the Russians did as well. Neither understood the complex social and political makeup of the country. Without doing so, we cannot hope to accomplish our objectives, so let me highlight the main points.

    When I first went to Afghanistan, in 1962, to prepare a US National Policy Paper, I found a good analogy for the land and the society to be a rocky hill sliced by gullies and covered by 20,000 Ping-Pong balls. The balls represented the autonomous village-states. Politically and economically divided, they shared a common adherence to a blend of primitive Islam and even more primitive tribal custom (varying throughout the country but known in the south as Pashtunwali). During their occupation, the Russians crushed many Ping-Pong balls, but they could not defeat enough of them to win. At any given time, roughly 80 percent of the country remained outside Russian control; so the Russians won all the battles but lost the war. Afghanistan became the graveyard of the Soviet Union.

    The brutal Soviet occupation shattered the Afghan social structure. Nearly one in ten Afghans was killed or died, and more than 5 million fled the country. Living wretchedly in refugee camps, mainly in Pakistan, hundreds of thousands of young Afghan men were "reshaped." Like the biblical Children of Israel after forty years in the wilderness, these Afghans emerged very different from their fathers. The new generation kept their stern code of belief, but they lost touch with the humanizing aspects of growing up in families. Living apart from mothers and sisters, many of the young men, mostly Pashtuns, were incorporated into male-only madrassas in which they were housed, fed, armed and radicalized. They emerged as the foot soldiers of the Taliban.

    When they were in power, the Taliban enforced an ugly, repressive regime, but it was no worse than some other regimes in Asia and Africa. And, as we can observe, societies and regimes evolve. Look at what has happened in postwar Vietnam. No one in my time in government could have guessed that the Communist regime would evolve into a relatively open and indeed capitalistic society. In Afghanistan there are signs, still faint to be sure, that while the stern code remains intact, at least the Taliban leadership is beginning to modify its program. As I will point out, we can encourage this trend.

    But as insurgents, the Taliban remain formidable foes. Our chances of defeating them are poor. Indeed, some independent observers believe they are becoming more popular while we are becoming less popular. They, and many non-Taliban Afghans, regard us, as they regarded the Russians, as foreign, anti-Muslim invaders. Moreover, they see that the government we are backing is corrupt and rapacious. Observers report that it is deeply involved in the drug trade, stealing aid money and even selling US-supplied arms to the Taliban (as the South Vietnamese government did to the Vietcong). Moreover, it is ineffective: its writ hardly runs outside Kabul. Most of the country is in the hands of brutal, predatory warlords. The Karzai government will not last long after our withdrawal--that was the fate of the Soviet puppet government there and of our puppet government in Saigon. Forced to choose between the warlords and the Taliban, Afghans are likely to choose the Taliban. As Gen. Stanley McChrystal has said, "Key groups have become nostalgic for the security and justice Taliban rule provided." Thus, we are courting long-term strategic defeat.

    Even in the tactical short run, I believe, trying to defeat the Taliban is not in America's interest.
    The harder we try, the more likely terrorism will be to increase and spread. As the history of every insurgency demonstrates, the more foreign boots there are on the ground and the harder the foreigners fight, the more hatred they engender. Substituting drone attacks for ground combat is no solution. Having been bombed from the air, I can attest that it is more infuriating than a ground attack.

    Our principal objection to the Taliban is that it has given Osama bin Laden and his immediate entourage a base of operations. The two groups, however, are very different: the Taliban are a national political organization, anchored in Afghanistan's largest ethnic group, while Al Qaeda is a loose alliance of dissidents from many countries, united only by their belief that their legitimate aims of ethnic/national self-determination and religious culture are being denied.

    For us, the overlap of the two groups comes when we try to get the Taliban to surrender Osama. We have offered what to poor tribesmen is an astronomical reward for him "dead or alive." This ploy has failed. In the Afghan code of Pashtunwali, to fail to protect someone who has been given sanctuary (melmastia) is a mortal sin, so our attempts to get the Pashtuns to do this insults their sense of honor.
    So what, realistically, can we do, and what can we not do? Let me be specific.
    ...

    Regarding Al Qaeda, what is important to US security is not capturing Osama bin Laden but disabling him. That is achievable. Here's how: he now enjoys the protection of the Pashtuns. Melmastia is a sacred obligation, but the Pashtunwali is limited. Osama's Pashtun hosts can insist, with honor, on his stopping actions that endanger them. That could be a key element in a truce that either we or, preferably, Pakistan makes with the Taliban. From that necessary first step, we can move toward dealing with the motivations of the disparate components of Al Qaeda. Since terrorist attacks can be mounted from many places, the only effective long-term defense against them is to deal with their causes.

    On the drug trade, it would be convenient if the Afghans solved our drug problem for us, but if we are realistic we must admit that drugs are ultimately our problem. Heroin is proof that market forces really do work. We can make minor adjustments, subsidizing the planting of other crops, buying up what is grown, engaging in defoliation, etc., but as long as people are willing to pay a high price for drugs, producers and distributors will supply them. To put our attempt to stop them in perspective, imagine a foreign invader trying to stop the French from producing wine. We cannot expect any Afghan government to solve our problem, but if we leave, the Taliban would probably again combat the drug trade, as they did in the 1990s.

    On our occupation, we need to consider three issues. Does our presence lead toward a sustainable result after our withdrawal? Can the occupation be maintained without turning a large part of the Afghan population and others against us? And can we afford it? I think the answer to all three is no. Consider these factors:

    First, it is rare that insurgencies end with the establishment of a regime favored by the occupier--that was the experience of the British and Russians in Afghanistan, the Americans in Vietnam, the French in Algeria. Governments acceptable to the foreign occupier may last a short while, but almost always, those who fought hardest against the foreigner take over when he leaves.

    Second, US military intervention in Afghanistan has not only solidified the Taliban as an organization but has also created increasing public support for it. There is much evidence in Afghanistan, as there has been in every insurgency I have studied, that foreign soldiers increase rather than calm hostility. The British found that to be true even in the American Revolution (where the two sides were "cousins," shared the same religion and spoke the same language).

    Third, the cost in casualties may not rise to the level of Vietnam or even Iraq, but the financial cost is unlikely to be less. My hunch is that the real cost to the US economy will be $3 trillion to $6 trillion, calculating overall, not just Congressional appropriations. So the Afghan campaign could derail your plans for America, as Vietnam derailed Johnson's Great Society.

    On Afghan government reform, there is not much we can do. Corruption runs from top to bottom. As I witnessed in Vietnam, if a government wishes to steal itself to death, foreigners can't stop it. We had an opportunity in the 1960s to help a reforming Afghan government but failed to do so; indeed, we welcomed the man who overthrew it, Mohammed Daoud Khan, because he was anti-Communist. To be realistic, we must assume that even an elected Hamid Karzai will probably not last long after our army departs.

    On the Pakistani government, there is even less we can do. There also, massive corruption begins at the top. President Asif Ali Zardari, who is described as "our man," is said to be disliked by the vast majority of Pakistanis and has a long record of mind-boggling dishonesty. I think Zardari's administration will be replaced fairly soon by a military government. If so, we must roll with the punch but try, modestly and unobtrusively, to help encourage the growth of compensating civic institutions.

    On Kashmir, as with many world problems, the logical solution is probably not practical. If India and Pakistan could agree to hold a plebiscite, the Kashmiris would probably accept modestly enhanced autonomy under India. Neither Pakistan nor India wants an independent Kashmir, but the current situation is costly for both, so they have established a back channel to inch toward accommodation. We should stay out of this problem.

    On Islam, you have set the only intelligent, humane course for our diverse world. The legacy of the neoconservatives and the Bush administration can be overcome, but it will take time for the marvelous speech you gave in Cairo to convince Muslims that we are willing to live with them in a multicultural world.

    On getting started, we have been given what I think is a major new opportunity by the Pakistanis. rt, we will take advantage of its attack on the Taliban in Swat by backing out as quickly and as gracefully as possible. How to get out is something former Senator George McGovern and I laid out in our book Out of Iraq, which with suitable changes can provide a template for Afghanistan. But as long as we are there, the war will continue, with disastrous consequences for all the things you want to do and we Americans need you to do. We must not follow Britain and Russia into Afghanistan's quicksand.
     
  19. Rumblemintz

    Rumblemintz Member

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    Are you really that frightened of the mountain men and their goats? (ok...I'll take that back)

    Did we not issue a mandate that we will go after those who harbour terrorists? I remember the country rallying behind that motto. Would that not be a good enough deterrent that you're country stands to take an a$$ whoopin if you support, harbour and aid those who act out in terrorism. And I'm not talking about just US Citizens...we who they call Satans because we don't share the same barbaric ideology.

    I would probably insist that my fellow country mates open a can of STFU and leave us alone or get the heck out of the country.

    Or we can spend more lives and billions of dollars in trying to educate the illiterate goat farmers that our way of live is better.

    I personally believe the results would be a bit more one sided if we followed through on what we intended in the first place by rooting out the militant terrorists. Sure they'd re-group and try again but they'd be in for the same a$$ whipping and the locals will finally turn against them. Heck it took them 7 years to regroup to this point. We could've pulled out and came back now, whooped em again (Josie) and repeat the cycle again and again, and still came out ahead budget wise. And I'd be willing to bet less American lives would be lost.

    (I have no facts to back it up :eek: ) Not declaring myself Genius as you sarcasticly put it, but I am saying I'm not afraid of the goat farmers and backward a$$ mountainmen that you seem to highly respect.
     
  20. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Member

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    And then what? Repeat later? Also FYI the Soviets tried that strategy.

    Defeating terrorism isn't a matter of raining down fire on the enemy. They know they are vastly outgunned. It is a matter of winning over the populace that provides a base of operations and recruitment for the terrorists. Going scorched earth and then leaving is about the worst solution possible. The population left behind is embittered towards you and the survivors become the next crop of recruits even more driven since you've whiped out their homes and left them no alternative.

    An insurgency can't be defeated by conventional means. The British found that out in places like Malaya and Northern Ireland, and we found that out in Iraq when we bribed the Sunni Tribes to join us.
     

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