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Good Financial News: IRAs are now out of reach ...

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout' started by No Worries, Apr 5, 2005.

  1. No Worries

    No Worries Member

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    The Supremes have spoken. People should be less hesistant now to roll over their 401k monies into IRAs ...

    IRAs Shielded in Bankruptcy, Justices Rule (subscription
    In a unanimous decision, the Supreme Court says creditors may not seize money in the retirement accounts to collect on debts.

    By David G. Savage, Times Staff Writer

    WASHINGTON — The Supreme Court ruled Monday that people who file for bankruptcy protection can keep the money saved in their individual retirement accounts.

    The unanimous decision throws a financial lifeline to the growing number of older Americans who are overwhelmed by debt after losing a job or getting hit by extraordinary costs for healthcare.


    Last year, more than 1.6 million people filed for personal bankruptcy — nearly double the number a decade ago. Legal experts say an increasing number of these heavily indebted people are at the end of their working lives and have no assets or income other than a monthly Social Security check.

    When people file for bankruptcy, their creditors are entitled to seize their assets to collect on their debts. This includes money held in a savings account.

    But certain assets, such as the debtor's house and car, typically are shielded from seizure under bankruptcy laws. The federal statute also shields the person's pension and similar plans that provide money "on account of age." For the high court, the question was whether an IRA is more like a pension or like a savings account.

    The justices decided an IRA is more akin to a pension because account holders can withdraw the money penalty-free only if they are at least 59 1/2 years old. Moreover, an IRA, like a pension, "provides income that substitutes for wage," Justice Clarence Thomas said.

    The ruling will preserve $55,000 in retirement savings for a couple who moved from California to Arkansas after they were forced to retire early from their jobs at Northrop Grumman Corp. with modest pensions. During their working years, Richard and Betty Jo Rousey had saved money through the company's 401(k) plan. They were in their late 50s when they left their jobs and were obliged to roll the money over into an IRA to avoid a tax penalty.

    After moving to Arkansas, Richard Rousey had back trouble and was unable to find a suitable job; the couple were soon overwhelmed by debt, their lawyer said.

    Once the Rouseys filed for bankruptcy, Jill Jacoway, the trustee for their creditors, moved to seize the money in their IRAs. A bankruptcy judge and the U.S. Court of Appeals in St. Louis agreed that the money had to go their creditors.

    Last year, a group of Stanford University law students appealed to the Supreme Court on behalf of the Rouseys.

    In Rousey vs. Jacoway, the justices said Congress intended to shield IRAs from seizure during bankruptcy.

    "Today's decision is important because it provides assurance that a family's financial bumps in the road will not keep them from having modest additional means — beyond Social Security — to help them cope with the many financial pressures of aging," said Patricia Kaeding , a lawyer in Madison, Wis., who filed a friend-of-the-court brief on behalf of retiree advocacy group AARP and in support of the Rouseys.

    Monday's ruling also is consistent with the terms of a bankruptcy overhaul bill in Congress that is poised for final approval.

    The legislation has drawn attention because it will make it harder for bankruptcy filers with above-average incomes to escape their debts. But one provision in the bill shields from seizure "retirement funds … that are in a fund or account that is exempt from taxation," such as an IRA.

    More than 45 million Americans have established IRAs, which allow them to save money for retirement tax-free.

    Several states, including California and New York, generally protect IRAs from being seized in a bankruptcy.

    The current federal law says debtors may shield their pensions and retirement funds from creditors only to the extent that the money is "reasonably necessary for the support of the debtor" and dependents.

    But the bankruptcy legislation drops that provision and says simply that retirement funds are shielded from being seized when a debtor files for bankruptcy. It has already passed the Senate, and the House is expected to give it final approval this week.
     
  2. Dr of Dunk

    Dr of Dunk Clutch Crew

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    Thanks for the link. Good read.
     
  3. Svpernaut

    Svpernaut Member

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    While I'm happy to hear this it doesn't help solve the US bankruptcy problem. Americans file bankruptcy way too often... something that was meant to have been a last resort is now seen as a quick fix that ends up costing all US consumers billions a year in additional fees and interests.
     
  4. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    I'm a creditors' attorney. And I couldn't disagree with you more. Bankruptcy abuse isn't nearly as rampant as conservatives like to pretend it is.

    D&D us, boys!!!!! I posted this there yesterday, anyway! :)
     
  5. Svpernaut

    Svpernaut Member

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    It's doubled over the past ten years, I think that speaks for itself.
     
  6. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    i don't know if that number is correct. but assuming it is, you're saying that's entirely based out of abuse? that there are no other factors??

    most bankruptcies I see are at least tangentially related to out of control medical bills. the U.S. Trustee's office scrutinizes each filing looking for abuse. if they find it, there is no discharge. recently, they've been moving people who hit an income threshold away from Chapter 7's to Chapter 13's.

    and what cracks me up is the credit card companies who b**** about this...but continue to make record-breaking loans to people at debt to income ratios that are beyond ridiculous.

    knew a guy in college with no job who had $30K in credit card debt. how the hell did that guy ever find a credit card company willing to offer that much to a guy with no income??? when you make a loan like that, you do it knowing full well what the risks are.
     
  7. Svpernaut

    Svpernaut Member

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    I'm not placing all of the blame on the American people by any means. God knows the lenders are the ones to blame if you had to point to finger at anyone in particular. Hell, it's EASIER go get credit cards and loans AFTER you have a bankruptcy, and that no-doubt helps many people make the decision to file for one in the first place. Just about everyone of my friends got themselves in some kind of debt because they were barraged with credit applications the day they turned 18... it's a collective problem that needs to be taken care of, and the root causes is the vanity of the people and the greediness of the lenders.
     
  8. No Worries

    No Worries Member

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    Hey man, don't drag my PG rated thread over to D&D!!! ;)

    Anyway, the Supremes decision does not impact stay-at-home Texans since our state law already barred creditors from reaching IRAs. Of course for me, I have rolled 4 different 401k into my one IRA and moving to another state could have made my IRA retirement monies reachable. I would have no choice but to roll those monies into my employer's plan (if they had a plan and that plan allowed it) and have my investment choices limited.
     
  9. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    you're right. to clarify, in Texas you can file under Federal or state exemptions. the state exemptions are GENERALLY better for the debtor, as Texas is a very pro-debtor state. BUT, in some cases the federal exemptions are better for all kinds of different reasons. this assures that someone who is "forced" into picking the federal exemptions is protected, as well.
     
  10. No Worries

    No Worries Member

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    The careful reader will note that if they are considering bankrupcy the need for a lawyer is NOT optional AND that any of my musings wrt to this subject are for information only and should not be misconstrued as me practicing law ;)
     
  11. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    ditto!!!! i'm not giving legal advice here AT ALL!!! just relaying information as i understand it, in general.

    yikes, no worries!! i'm done talking about legal subjects here now! :)
     
  12. RIET

    RIET Member

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    Yeah yeah.

    You're just like those people who publish those how-to-make your own wills and claim they're not practicing either.

    Does this mean that anyone who reads this thread are legally your clients and you are now representing thousands perhaps millions of people (including Yao fans in China)?

    I think so.
     
  13. No Worries

    No Worries Member

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    Is it not legal advice, unless there is a bill? :D
     
  14. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    well, the courts in Texas already ruled that wasn't the practice of law, so I guess I'm in good shape! :) like me, those guys weren't giving advice to particular people but were just regurgitating.
     
  15. rrj_gamz

    rrj_gamz Member

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    That is a good read...On the business side, I'd say its BS...Frrom a personal perspect I agree with it...I don't see how its different from what OJ is doing (Annuity I think)...Any protection is good protection...
     
  16. No Worries

    No Worries Member

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    This whole practicing-law, not-practicing-law fine line is not something that I ever would want to appear in front a judge about.
     
  17. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    YOU'RE RIGHT. i'm done talking about legal issues here. thanks!
     
  18. Harrisment

    Harrisment Member

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    Are there really strict gudelines like that in place when giving legal advice? I didn't know that.
     
  19. No Worries

    No Worries Member

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    especially if you are not a lawyer. I suspect that doing so would be considered an ethical breach for CPAs, CFPs, CLUs, RIAs, etc. This is in addition to breaking a criminal law of practicing-law-without-a-license.
     
    #19 No Worries, Apr 5, 2005
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2005
  20. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    the concern for attorneys is that, in giving the advice, you've created an attorney-client relationship.

    the concern for non-attorneys giving legal advice is that it amounts to the unlicensed practice of law.

    frankly, i didn't see either in this thread. this is just commentary. but it's why i'm wary about posting advice in threads that seek legal advice about a topic.
     

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