All of those who have advocated religious symbols being banned from public grounds can express their outrage with the hypocrisy of the NY school system in this thread. http://www.thomasmore.org/index.cfm?location=5&subsectionid=1&PageID=1&release=157 The Thomas More Law Center, a national public interest law firm based in Ann Arbor, Michigan, has filed a federal civil rights lawsuit against the City of New York, the Chancellor of the New York City Department of Education, and another school official, alleging that the City’s policy regarding “Holiday Displays” unlawfully discriminates against Christians. The lawsuit was filed on behalf of Andrea Skoros and her two children, elementary school students in the New York City public school system. At issue is a school policy promulgated by the Chancellor’s office that prohibits the display of Nativity scenes in the City’s schools during the Christmas season, but expressly permits and encourages these schools to display during certain religious holidays and seasonal observances the Jewish Menorah and the Islamic Star and Crescent. City officials claim that the goal of this policy is “to promote understanding and respect for the diverse beliefs and customs relating to our community’s observance of the winter holiday.” Ms. Skoros and her children are devout Roman Catholics, and they object to this policy because it endorses and promotes the Jewish and Muslim faiths and conveys the impermissible message of disapproval of Christianity. Last year, pursuant to this policy, several New York City public schools, including one of the schools attended by Ms. Skoros’ son, displayed the Jewish Menorah and the Islamic Star and Crescent, but not the Nativity scene. In fact, one public school principal issued a memo pursuant to the “Holiday Displays” policy encouraging teachers to bring to school “religious symbols” that represent the Islamic and Jewish religions. No mention of Christianity was made in this memo. Catholic League president William Donohue made several attempts to get school officials to change their discriminatory policy, with no success. School officials dismissed requests to display the Nativity scene and instead would only allow Christmas trees. However, the Christmas tree is a secular symbol and not the equivalent of the religious symbols allowed for Jews and Muslims. According to Richard Thompson, Chief Counsel of the Thomas More Law Center, “The policy relegates Christians to second class citizens. Forcing schools to only allow secular symbols for Christmas while allowing religious symbols for other religions’ holiday observances shows a callous indifference and hostility toward Christians during one of their holiest seasons. It is ironic that a religion enjoying the largest following in this nation is consigned by the City of New York to a least-favored status. It’s a shame that we have reached a point in our Nation’s history that ‘respect for diverse beliefs and customs’ has come to mean discrimination against Christians—at Christmas time no less.” This year, New York City public schools are at it again. Pursuant to the City’s policy, prominent displays of the Jewish Menorah abound, with no Christian Nativity scenes to be found. According to the lawsuit, the City’s policy violates the Establishment and Free Exercise Clauses of the First Amendment, as well as Ms. Skoros’ constitutional right as a parent to direct the religious education of her children.
That's almost as stupid as the judge in Ala frikken bama displaying the Ten Commandments in his court for historical purposes. I tell you what, I'll express my outrage for a policy "to promote understanding and respect for the diverse beliefs and customs relating to our community’s observance of the winter holiday" if you express your outrage over this idiot judge forcing his Ten Commandments on everyone who appears in his court. Poor Christians just being abused all over the country, it's an outrage I tell ya!
Last time I checked, there was supposed to be seperation. I don't know how it is at all legal for them to put up the religious symbols of any group in the school. Lately, I've been trying to remember the decorations that were put up in my elementary school. I can't really register anything though. I know there was green and red, Christmas trees, snow men, and decorations of presents. I just can't recall if Santa was anywhere to be found. Nobody ever got in trouble for drawing santa, so I guess he must have been up on the wall. Damn, I don't know why I can't remember this crap. I do know, however, that the Nativity, the star of david, and the star and crescent were no where to be found that that's the way it should be.
in public school, i see no reason why any religious symbol should be displayed unless it's for the purpose of education...like teaching world religions...and even then it should be done with great care. i don't see the same concerns in a courtroom...a judge can decorate his courtroom any way he likes, for the most part. there are judges in harris county with movie posters on the walls...i don't see the judge establishing religion in that way...
It's okay for an employee of the state like a judge to push his beliefs in the form of religious "decoration" on people but not for school administrators. A lot of consistency there.
I think everyone's missing the point here. It's not about religion -- it's about not giving kids nightmares! Look at the nativity for a moment. I distinctly remember my terror as a child when I saw that the savior of mankind was sitting in an animal's food dish with the animals gathering 'round, all with the tacit approval of his parents! ... but they weren't his real parents, you see. He was kind of in this deity foster program without proper oversight, and, and... Please pardon me if I've offended anyone. Just kidding, of course.
Also, I think that this is deplorable. Clutch, I can't edit my posts-was that turned off and I missed the memo?
Yeah, if I could edit, I would also point out that both Mary and Joseph are extending their hands, gesturing to the animals in a creepy way of offering. "There you go, bull! Don't mind us!"
Amazing. In my day (gather 'round kids) we used to recite the Lords Prayer in class. And this was public school. And in godless, socialist Canada. Imagine. You'd think they could teach knowledge of and respect for all major religions in school. I'm not a big fan of pretending religions don't exist when religion has been very instrumental in just about all cultures' histories throughout the ages (both for good and for bad). Not exactly sure what is gained by fostering ignorance. Merry Christmas all.
rotfl BBob. I've been meaning to ask you if you previously posted here under a different moniker. If not, it's great to have a hilarious new poster.
Thanks, Achebe. The answer is no. This has been my first existence at CC (after reading Clutch's front page off and on for a couple of years), and my first BBS of any sort, actually. Addictive, ain't it.
Yeah, it's addictive, B-Bob. And you crack me up! Separation of Church and State... why is it an issue? It's one of the founding tenets of this country. One of the reasons so many people came here. I don't get it. If parents think their kids need religion of some sort, then see that they get it outside of school! (and yes, I have kids) I can't speak to New York City... they go their own way up there. I wish Texas wasn't being "taken over" by the likes of James Lininger (multimillionaire) and his so-called "Texas Public Policy Foundation"... a very fundamentalist Christian/far-right political PAC. Texans should look to what's happening in their own back yard. It ain't pretty.
no...i don't see it as inconsistent...i'd say there are different concerns for what is hanging in a judge's courtroom and what is being taught to impressionable young children at a public school. why is hanging the ten commandments in your courtroom pushing your beliefs?? how does that push your beliefs on anyone?? i can see why it would be a concern in a public school, but i don't see those same concerns in a courtroom...i've been in courtrooms with all kinds of stuff on the walls. it's never influenced me one way or another at all, even as i attempt to create the best picture possible for my client to the judge.
Please show me in the first amendmant where it says you can't have a Christain religious symbol in a public school. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." Seemingly the intent of the First Amendment was NOT to have a national religion and to allow folks to practice whatever religion they choose. The phrase "separation of church and state" appears nowhere in the Constitution. In addition, symbols of religion do not necessarily equate to teaching religion in school. All religions have a historical perspective that students would benefit from learning. Perhaps some of the differences, discrimination and biases that we have would not exist if students were taught about various religious and belief systems. School is a place of learning. Students should learn the historical and present day significance of the Star of David or the Crucifix or the Koran. Granted the teaching of an individual's religion should be done outside the public school system, but the teaching of religion in a historic, current events and social studies context should be perfectly acceptable and to do that you need to explain and showcase various religious symbols.
I agree with you. The First Amendment was to prevent the government from establishing a national religion...like the Anglican Church. It was a situation where if you weren't an Anglican, you'd be jailed. Sadly, this train has already left the conceptual station though. The Supreme Court has already fouled this topic up MIGHTILY. They have misinterpreted and misapplied the law. Stare decisis requires that it be followed unless the Supreme Court wishes to repudiate this view. They have taken freedom OF religion and turned it into freedom FROM religion. A friend called me this afternoon and posed it this way: CHILD: Why do we have Christmas off from school? TEACHER: Because it's a national holiday? CHILD: Why is it a national holiday? TEACHER: ummm....errr...uhhh...
I found it interesting that my polling place this year was a Lutheran Church. You can't hang the Ten Commandments in a school, but you can vote at a Christian church.
The concern is that an agent of government in a position of authority is pushing a set of religious beliefs on other people. Whether it's a child in a classroom or an atheist on the stand makes no difference and whether it's influenced you, a Christian already, isn't a factor either. Perhaps if every court room was decorated with something that strongly conflicted with your religious beliefs, a pentagram for example, then you'd be a little more influenced to say that religious symbols shouldn't be "decorating" government property for any reason. I can't believe you're asking how the Ten Commandments is pushing beliefs. The first commandment is thou shalt have no other gods before me. What do you call that?
