Francis is a PG. Period.

Salsa,
The operative word is future, as "in the future". But he needs some help developing, not just time. As far I'm concerned,you're right-Francis is our bright star for many years to come. But if by the middle of next season his turnovers don't cool down, start taking minutes away. Maybe the pressure will help him.

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Now accepting applications for the Make Steve Francis Accept Reality Club

 

Jason Williams had 6 assists to 2.9 TO's last year. This year, he has 7.5 assists to 3.7 TO's. Those #'s are MUCH BETTER THAN STEVE'S by ratio.

Nobody is suggesting Williams change positions because he 1. is doing a better job of distributing the ball that Steve, and 2. he doesn't have the proper skills to be a 2.

Find a decent PG w/Francis turnover/assist ratio-even in the beginning of their career. I couldn't.

Even Jason Williams, who is infamous as a careless passer and turnover machine, has a better ratio.

Conclusion: Steve is a 2. If anyone wants to argue objectively, go right ahead.
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[This message has been edited by haven (edited April 05, 2000).]

 

Alright,

Can someone here please explain to me how changing someone's position on a line-up card changes their style of play?

By making Stevie a SG, how exactly is that going to lower his turnovers. He's still going to break peeples ankles with his dribble and penetrate to the rim with the instincts to pass.

Please explain how your PG will all of a sudden handle the ball more than Stevie. Please explain why we can't run plays To Stevie (rather than through) at the same frequency now as with your new PG. Please explain how the Bulls used their PG to handle the ball all the time and run the offense--lol. You can throw a token PG into our mix and call SF a SG like Jordan, but how does that change things. If you actually indeed to install a PG into the mix to run the show, I say, only a foolish man would run the offense through someone other than SF--Larry Brown comes to mind.

And, oh yeah, don't forget to describe how you manage defense now. Anyone remember how Anderson scorched Iverson when Philly was in town.

Nolen is right. This is a new PG. But he is a PG.


[This message has been edited by heypartner (edited April 05, 2000).]

 

I agree, Haven I think you are nickel and diming it a little. The difference between JWill and Marbury's this year to that of Steve's aren't that big. We are talking about 1.65 for Steve (in his rookie year), and less than stunning 2.0-2.3 for the other guys. (For reference the more experienced guys better known for distribution and taking care of the ball are high 3s and low 4s)

You also should consider other factors influencing that number--namely the other players and offensive system. In fact Marbury's # is worse right now then earlier in his career, because he has to create offense more now (before he was around more talent players), just like Stevie has to all season. JWill has always had good shooters around him--which also works for him. To be fair you have to factor his own scoring as being a positive influence on the team outcome, and logic alone tells us the more your team needs you to score, the more turnovers and fewer assist you will get. Further none of the last 4 or 5 point guards we have had have done much better in this regard--and they have had a much more limited roll in generating offense for themsleves or others. In fact even in Cassell's last season with us (maybe you claim he shouldn't be a PG) and first season with Phoenix he had a ratios around 1.7--same as Stevie's this year. But you put a an Allen and Robinson around him, he is closing on a 3.0.

So I think it is a huge leap to say Francis should be a two guard because his a/to # isn't so good this year. When you consider a new offense, he is a rookie, and he is our leading scorer, I am not worried about the figure. Plus, lately we need to try new and loose offensive plays for next year (note: I did not say throw some games at the end to ensure Atlanta and Clevland don't steal our pick). Now if the numbers don't get better over the next 1-2 years, then you have a serious debate. Right now it is best that he is our one, I could change my view over time, but I really doubt that he won't significantly improve in all phases of his game.


[This message has been edited by sir scarvajal (edited April 05, 2000).]

 

Hey Partner,
I've got a better idea. Why don't we call Steve Francis a center? Afterall, he can post up fairly well, rebound, and gets a block every now and then.
Don't be a smart-ass. It doesn't accomplish anything.
Seriously, point guards typically handle the ball more than the other 4 spots. Point guards most often bring the ball up court (unless you're Detroit), set up the offense (we're not DIT anymore), and have the primary responsibility of distributing the ball; hence, starting point guards usually have higher assist totals/averages for the year than their teammates.
I think Steve's scoring would shoot up a lot if he played the two spot. His defense would need to toughen up, but without the bal in his hands as much, he's turn the ball over less. That's my THEORY, but you are right that this doesn't mean that his style won't change overnight. He'll have to adapt.
Now let me reiterate what I've been saying all along: I want Steve Francis at the point now and in the future. But if he doesn't improve, after he gets more time to settle down, after getting some veteran mentorship (hopefully coaching), then the Rockets need to explore their options. Putting Francis at the 2 is an option.

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Now accepting applications for the Make Steve Francis Accept Reality Club

 

Haven's argument is that Francis shouldn't be a point guard because he turns the ball over too much and doesn't get enough assists (if it's not, please feel free to correct me). This argument is a natural result of stereotyping each position on the basketball court. There's obviously a ton of examples we could use to show that you shouldn't do this:

A Center is supposed to score in the paint, rebound, and hopefully play defense. Does this mean Bill Laimbeer or Jack Sikma should have been guards since they preferred to stay outside and shoot jumpers and weren't good shot-blockers?

A shooting guard is of course supposed to be a good outside shooter. Should we move Shandon Anderson to another position because he doesn't fit the bill in that respect? What about Vernon Maxwell? His shooting percentages were always sub-par. Mark Jackson prefers to post up, should Indiana be playing him at Center? Kenny Smith never got a lot of assists, but his shooting percentages were always high. Shouldn't he have played the 2 spot?

The objective is to have the best team on the court. Does moving Steve to the 2 make us better? How 'bout a lineup of Moochie at point, Steve at 2, and Walt at 3, with Shandon and Mobley coming off the bench for about 12 minutes a piece at the 2 spot. Does that help us? Maybe we should trade both Shandon and Mobley for a power forward and a center, since KT prefers to shoot threes and Cato isn't offensive-minded.

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I simply don't think Francis is as effective at distributing the ball as more pure PG's.

I think that Steve's main objective on offense should properly be scoring-it's what he's best at. If he's at PG, the #1 priority should be to create for other members of the team.

One can certainly run plays for a SG, but they're initiated from the point position.
Defense, admittedly, would be a problem. I'd hope that Francis could learn to take advantage of his advantage in quickness to make up for the size differential.

And the statistical difference in those ratios is enormous, not numerically, but percentage wise. The difference between Francis and even Jason Williams on the turnover ratio is something like 25%. That's EXTREMELY significant.

Personel does matter to an extent, but then... Andre Miller doesn't exactly play for a great team, and his ratio is better, and he's also a rookie.

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P1S2,

Fair enough. I was being a smart ass. But only to make a point. Point is: the Bulls PG never ran the offense. A PG other than SF won't be running our offense either.

 

HeyPartner,
The Bulls ran the triangle offense, aka the triple post. In that offense there's constant ball movement in passing. It was Pippen, Jordan and Kukoc that ran the Bulls' offense; all of whom posted up and passed a lot. Also, the triangle system emphasizes centers, when there's a good one. Look at how many 10-12 foot face up jumpers that Longley became infamous for shhoting (and making). That offense is nothing like the offense the Rockets have. There is a lot of drive and dish in our system, including a lot of slashing to the hole solo (via isolation plays, etc.). In our system, Francis' current style of play is more suited to the shooting guard position. He will solidify his point guard play (remember Cassel 93-95 vs. now?). I believe in him and our future as a team. But if he can't get better-or is too thick skulled (or both), then he is not fitting to be a point guard.
I know how easy it is to get pissed off. Trust me; I remember vividly some dude named Caveman who I loved to hate. But even the two of us could be civil when we wanted to be.
Take care and speak your mind.

P1st, shoot 2nd.

 

Ask Nolen how much I'd love to talk Motion offense. Let me return to this.

thx

peace biscuit

 

Francis WOULD be more effective at the PG!!! Francis is not a truly gifted passer, a la Jason Kidd or Jason Williams. That is not to say Francis can't become a great PG, rather that he could become an even greater SG, his natural position. Look at Iverson, he really improved when he became a SG. Having less playmaking and ballhandling responsibilities lets Francis do more of what he does best-penetrate to the hole, and be me a more freewheeling offensive player. The choice is obvious.

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Sorry, I'm still getting the hang of this thing. What I meant to say was Francis WOULD be more effective at the SG! Hope it clears things up.


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Heypard- once again, lol. Come on, get it done already, put down those plays in flash! Our season is ending soon, and for the first time in a looong time we have to watch everyone else in the playoffs, if we can stomach it. We'll need something to talk about in here.

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Nolen, (couldn't sleep last night -- eh). I finally got my Director 8 upgrade last week. Flash w/o a programming reference just pisses me off!

First I have to finish the saveourcomets t-shirts...then I submit my game budget to DaDakota. If he thinks the man hours are warranted, we go live just in time for the playoffs and lottery....loooOvely.

OK here's the plan on the movies;

1. Flex for Dummies (or, "Show me the Motion")
2. Advanced Flex: Demystifying the Triangle
3. Transition Flex (or Watching a Phi Slamma Jamma Practice...or Rudy explains what "We Will Run w/Francis" means)
4. The Dawn of a New Era: The Francis Wing attack with weak-side flex
5. The Zipper Play (stolen from the 76'ers)
6. Francis/Bullard pick-n-roll that Riley dismissed for a big loss!
7. Why is Bullard Starting (or "You can be Jeff Hornachek, Too") or ("How Do You Explain to Your Girlfriend Why You're Up at 4am Watching the Laker game in Slow Motion")
8. Minnesota/Garnett death trapping #6
9. Teaching an Old Dog New Tricks (Failed Experiments in Dream Flex-ing)
10. Two Shakes against the Lakers in January
11. The San Antonio/Laker zone response to #10
12. Rudy responds in late March with a Two Shakes w/extended options
13. Shandon on the move (Baseline Flex)
14. Wizard Comes Alive (Flex Double Pick)
15. Ticketholders demand no Tanking: Release the Hounds (Alley-oop-ing against Mutombo!!)

And the pre-season playbook that has only surfaced in flashes throughout the season.
16. The Warp n Woof Flex (coined by your's truly)
17. Double High Post Pick (only seen glimpse)
18. The Triple Option (1st spotted by Will in this thread, as I recall)

<FONT SIZE="2" FACE="Verdana, Arial"><A HREF="http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/Forum3/HTML/004732.html">Observations from courtside in DC</A>
</FONT>


Am I missing anything seriously. there are more plays. tell me what you want. But I'm not included a Thomas leg kick yet.

[This message has been edited by heypartner (edited April 06, 2000).]

 

Haven, but the main cause for his ratio is excess turnovers, not lack of assists. Given he has to score many points for us and he is a rookie in a new system, I am not that worried about the TO's yet. However, lack of assists would suggest he isn't trying to get others involved or perhaps doesn't have a poitn guard mentality at all. In fact he is the #1 rookie in terms of assists, and his assist #'s are higher than such well-regarded point guards as Avery J, D. Armstrong, Stoudimire, K. Anderson or Miller.

Like I said, his a/to ratio is comparable to Cassell's the last year he was with us as well as his first year with Pheonix. Cassell, in a different role now (not having to create as much) and with better scorers around him, has a reasonable number. With better players around Stevie, more time of all the players to play with the new system and each other, I am fairly confident his a/to numbers will improve dramatically. If they don't after a year or two then this becomes a closer call. Right now to take the ball out of his hands would be the completely wrong direction for our offense, IMO.

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Heypard- hilarious titles.

Why don't you throw in the primary ISO plays for Hakeem and Chuck, to show how far we've come? It won't require much animation! LOL!

Or put in a couple of Tralblazer plays with Quitten, to see if he is involved in any more of a motion offense there than if he stayed here.

Also, (although I'm sure you've already thought of this) I'm curious to see the different folds that come up with Francis/Mobley plays when both are on the court. Say, Francis wing attack in the first quarter (without Mobes but with Wiz) vs. end of the 4th with Mobes and Anderson, no Wiz. Or, Two Shakes with Moochie and without Francis (in the late 3rd) or in the late 4th with Francis there.

The addition of Norris changed the look of our team, when he became the official backup and Drew the benchwarmer. Now, even our backup is an up-tempo penetrating slasher. How did this change our team when the second unit is out? Also, were any new plays created for all the smallball/3 gurards play we've seen of late? There were a couple of weeks when we saw a lot of Moochie/Francis/Mobley out there.

The ideal situation, although probably too much work, would be to find RealPlayer or Quicktime highlights of each play you create in flash, so we can see it in execution. That would be awesome, although difficult to find. Let me know if I can help.

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