Seems Vancouver can let go of Francis about as well as Houston can let go of Pippen. There's a long discussion thread going on in alt.sports.basketball.nba.vanc-grizzlies on Usenet if any of you are interested. Some of the more interesting points people are making "we'd rather have a good guy in Michael Dickerson than a malcontent like Steve". While Dickerson is having a good year, I can't believe anyone with reasonable sanity would rather have Dickerson than Francis, but hey. The title of the thread is "Francis is making Stu look bad...". Anyway, if interested, join in (just don't act like a jackass). ------------------ trade them all and fire the coach.
RF, you'll never find it that way!!! it's a newsgroup. call your local ISP for help. Oh...and watch out for the alt.binary stuff.
Gee, maybe people in Vancouver have brains. At least they can read boxscores: Dickerson, Harrington, Price and Carr have combined for 1414 pts., 480 reb. in the Grizzlies 42 games (averaging 33.6 and 11.4 per game as a group). Francis and Massenburg have combined for 783 pts. and 236 reb. in the Rockets 43 (18.2 and 5.5). These comparisons are the only fair way to evaluate this trade so far what with injuries and DNP's. Stu Jackson fleeced you guys so good you can't see logic. As you sputter to explain the above numbers ("but, but, Stevie is a future all-star, will lead us to the promised land, etc." ad nauseum) don't forget we have Harrington on a sweetheart contract and we have your first round pick sometime in the next three years. Believe me, the Arizona alley-oop between Bibby and the Dick we get to see a couple of times a game is awesome, Harrington's baby hook is dreamy, Michael 's ability with his first step is huge and our coach calls him our best defensive player but even sweeter is knowing that you Houston fans think you got the best part of the deal because "the rookie who talks directly to God" nails the occassional three (.304, whoopee!). We like to call Stevie "Mr. Pepperidge Farms" -- lots of artificial stuff and sickening turnovers. Michael Dickerson is just a super nice kid who will quietly rise to the top tier of shooting guards in the league. Pepperidge Farms will dazzle you guys but one day you'll wake up and realize you got hosed big time by the hosers from the North.
head shake whatever something too long to remember blah, francis is a franchise player. players like francis don't grow on trees. dickerson and harrington are good, complete players, but neither one will take you over the top. you need a franchise player. it will be a lot easier for us to find good, complete players in the draft and through free agency and through trades to help francis build a championship team. you guys have a pick from us, but that is far from a guarantee that that pick will bring you a franchise player. i wish you luck rebuilding, but really we are in a better position than you. although i will admit that you do have some very talented players and i do wish you future success. until we play you, and then we'll just have to win.
Gee, now I know why we only won 2 rings in the 90s. If we would've just traded Matt Maloney, Randy Livingston, Brent Price, Emanual Davis, Rodrick Rhodes, Chucky Brown (sorry CBFC), Pete Chilcutt, and Mark Bryant for Gary Payton, we probably would've run the table for the rest of the decade. The combined numbers are similar, so how could Seattle have refused that offer?
where is "give your head a shake ?" id like to hear his response. ------------------ "Don't they get cable in Canada ?" Keith olbermann, after watching hakeem block terry catledge's shot 5 times.
cabbage: i recognized i left shandon off the list after i sent the post. thanks for catching that. if he decides to stay after next year, he will be a solid contributer, but i personally doubt he'll be a starter on a title contender. the label on rahim is up for debate. i think he is simply one of the most underrated players in basketball. he's a three column player (pts, rbs, asts) who I'd label a poor man's grant hill. its far to early to determine who WON the trade, and although the grizz fans idea of how to break down the deal is questionable at best, the main idea is solid. Our backcourt is strong thanks to this trade and the signing of shandon, but if our frontcourt is relying on a green kenny thomas there will be plenty more lottery years ahead.
as an addition to the last post, i realize that cato also has the long-term contract and he stands a chance of helping the frontcourt substantially, but can he sustain his health through an 82 game season? finding quality big men is much more difficult than shoring up your backcourt.
I just don't understand why "its far too early to determine who won the trade." Not only did we nab the best player in the deal [by far], but we were able to replace the traded players with players of equal or greater ability. Mobley and Dickerson are about equal [though after today's game the edge goes to Mobes], and I feel that Kenny Thomas has a much better array of skills than Othella Harrington. You have to give props to Stu for making the best deal he could, and he did a pretty good job. Othella and Dick are nice players, but come on, don't tell me they [even COMBINED] are anything close to what Steve Francis brings. He is the best guard to come out in years. Not just his play, the electricity he brings to the basketball court, the national attention his play brings to the team. I have no doubt in my mind we won that deal by a landslide.
Wow... that was a truly stupid post. Seriously though... I bet Vancouver is wishing they had traded w/Detroit for Stackhouse... I'm grateful for their mistake
Hey, Headshake! You're right. You ripped us off. And Francis says he was wrong about Vancouver. He wants to make things right by coming back there to lead your team to the championship. Rudy agrees it's the right thing to do. We're gonna reverse the deal and send Francis and Massenburg back to you for Dickerson, Harrington, Price, and Carr. Har har! Just kidding! We're not that stupid.
Hey, you can gush on your Arizona alleyoops all the way to the lottery for the next 10 years. Seems to me that old Pepperidge Boy has single-handedly led the Rockets to a 4 game lead ahead of the Grizzlies. Oh, and in case you hadn't heard, Othella isn't exactly the happiest of guys up there in Vancouver. BTW, that format of calculating trades is ridiculous. Nowhere does it include the number of points Steve Francis penetrations bring off of multiple perimeter passes, as well as the leadership and competitive fire he brings. That's just like saying the Bulls traded Dick+Harrington+Price+Carr to you for Michael Jordan (30.0 points, 5 boards), but you won the deal because the player points add up to more. [This message has been edited by thacabbage (edited January 30, 2000).]
yeah, i'm a rockets fan, but a agree with the grizzlie guy. dickerson, harrington, and a first round pick (which will be no lower than the mid-teens in all probability) netted the grizz the better of the deal. the rocks are now left with a hole at two positions that could have been filled for years to come. harrington will be a very serviceable power forward, as he already is, and dickerson will one day be an all-star. and the retort is the grizz still need a franchise player. lets be honest, abdul-rahim is every bit the franchise player stevie is. all the grizz need is a good center (i assume reeves will eventually just fill a back-up capacity). lets look at the starting rosters of the future. grizz c-a future 1st rounder (possibly even rockets pick) or free agent pf- harrington sf- abdul-rahim sg- dickerson pg- bibby on the bench will still have big men, reeves, parks, long. rockets c- cato pf- k. thomas or 'los (who's already 28) sf- future 1st rounder sg- future 1st rounder pg- francis on the bench will likely have mobley, drew, no big men folks, i'm not dogging the rockets, but frankly i'd rather have the grizzlies roster looking forward in this decade. also keep in mind when the last time a team with a dominating point guard went on to win the championship last year- spurs, aj....No the two years prior- bulls, ron harper...No rockets years- rockets, kenny smith..NOO!! not since the early ninties when the pistons won did was the teams best player a point guard, and even that example is up for debate. just a thought.
Given what Wham and thaCabbage has already posted, Ill add: Speaking of Turnover, who is the Grizzlies coach? And how many games has he had to declare Dickerson a great Defensive player. That comment in itself says alot of the Defensive prowess of youR other 4 starters... BIG COUNTRY Oh and one more thing. What is the Grizzlies winning percentage? For what you self proclaim as a Fleecing, it isn't showing up in the win column.
Yes, that's a step in the right direction... continued improvement like that may make you guys true fans and NBA-knowledgable. Yes, for the mentally-inept it is the only way. By your statement it can be said that your mighty quartet mentioned above is a better deal than receiving Alonzo Mourning since he only averages 21.1 ppg and 9.9 rebs/game. Sure... why don't you approach Pat Riley with that reasoning. Your "mighty quartet" would easily get you Chris Webber who's going for a paltry 24.7/10.8 clip. Oh, and by the way, your Quadrumvirate would EASILY be a better group than Michael Jordan to have on a team since they outscored and outrebounded him has well. Yup... it must be the water, because whatever Stu's drinking has affected you as well. By the way, Dickerson was replaced by Mobley (who, btw, has a quicker, more explosive first step than Dickerson, something you seem so proud of -- why I don't know). He's also in the running for 6th man of the year and Harrington was/will replaced by Kenny Thomas. Sounds like we traded a couple of guys who were easily replaced. Oh, and your 1st round draft pick was replaced with Detroit's 1st rounder. On top of that, we have a future superstar at point guard. For your team, the deal was good. For our team, it was good as well. Please don't insult your teams'/nation's intelligence by combining stats and saying that's "the only fair way to evaluate this trade". For someone trying to prove a bad point, yes, it is. Regarding your turnovers comment about Steve. This seems to be the life suppport stat for Steve's detractors. Of course if you say Steve's such a bad player because of these turnovers, then I'm sure you wouldn't want Stephon Marbury, Jerry Stackhouse, Jason Williams, Darrel Armstrong, Kevin Garnett, Jason Kidd, Alonzo Mourning, or Tim Duncan on your team either. Why? They all average more than 3.5 turnovers per game. How horrific! I can see their fans jumping up and down screaming for trades for these chumps! Oh, by the way, did you like the way "Pepperidge Farms" shut your snackholes up the last time he went up there? Beautiful wasn't it? I'm sure you felt really good about the "Mighy 4" after that. What were their combined stats for that game? LOL!!! Don't worry... there's more to come. I can see it... When you actually have an argument to fight for, come back... till then... enjoy the "Mighty 4". ------------------ trade them all and fire the coach. [This message has been edited by Dr of Dunk (edited January 30, 2000).]
chrisjent: you left Shandon Anderson off your list. Really, I have no idea how this is even up to discussion [and even less a clue how a Rocket fan can think we lost the deal], but that trade was an absolute joke. Othella Harrington and Michael Dickerson are nice, but really, Steve Francis just got a triple-double [with 17 rebounds!], and is coming off a week in which he was not only player of the week, but led his team to a 6 game winning streak. And Abdur Rahim is not a franchise player. He is a star, and there is a big difference. Steve Francis in his first year has already led his team to more wins than Rahim has in his 4th. PF Thomas SF Lotto Pick C Cato SG Mobley/Anderson PG Francis/Drew PF Harrington SF Rahim C Fat-Ass cap killer SG Dickerson PG Bibby I would much rather have our lineup. And let's not forget Vancouver doesnt have it's first round draft pick this year [read it yesterday, cant remember who it belongs to now.] I don't blame Grizzlies fans. It must be downright frustrating knowing that your team's best player is in Houston.
Othella not happy in Vancouver? Maybe we can get him back. I like 'Thella he could Replace . .*gulp* Pig Miller NO NO WAIT. . . HE CAN REPLACE TONY MASSENBERG!!!! [I like the Pig .. . he is the team good luck charm ;-) ] As for the Grizz Fan . . . I wonder will you be able to keep Rahim when his contract is up. He probably can't take being a LOSER for his whole career. Rocket River Honestly, Vancouver just isn't showing any improvement even with the improvement in players.
GYHAS, Is that Canadian math?? Maybe it's the conversion rate ;-) GYHAS said: Dickerson, Harrington, Price and Carr have combined for 1414 pts., 480 reb. in the Grizzlies 42 games (averaging 33.6 and 11.4 per game as a group). Francis and Massenburg have combined for 783 pts. and 236 reb. in the Rockets 43 (18.2 and 5.5). Dr. of Dunk is right, your comparison is for the "mentally-inept...I have tried to figure out your math and the only thing I could come up with is you are comparing 4 players to one. The averages are (Dickerson 16.4 ppg, 3.1 rpg-Harrington 13.7, 7.1-Price 3.8, 1.0-Carr 2.9, 1.4). If you average it out to make it even...comparing 4 players to 2...then Dickerson, Harrington, Price, and Carr are, as a unit, averaging 9.2 ppg and 3.15 rpg each. Francis and TMass are at 11.5 ppg and 2.7 rpg each. The point is that basically you can work the numbers in your favor whichever side you're on. The real issue is that this trade helped both sides....Vancouver filled some needs that they had by getting a 2 guard and a power forward....Houston got a tremendous raw talent who is only going to get better!! IMO Houston got the better of the deal...Francis will become an all-star and already you can see signs that the NBA is setting this guy up to be the next poster child for the league. The Rocks got an all-star in the making and the Grizz got 4 role players.
