i don't know how kerry dances around this one, since ia day after he jumped on the swiftvets for calling into question his service, he's shown here in a free-fire smear against everyone who served in vietnam. http://humaneventsonline.com.edgesuite.net/unfit_video2.html one of the former POWs in the ad is Paul Galanti: http://www.mudvillegazette.com/archives/001197.html -- During the 2000 presidential primaries, Galanti was the Virginia Chair of Senator John McCain's presidential bid. "John is the only guy I know who is more positive than I am," says Galanti. "He did quite well in Virginia especially considering that the campaign was composed of an all-volunteer Army of political non-professionals"! Galanti's military decorations include the Silver Star, Two Legions of Merit for combat, the Meritorious Service Medal, the Bronze Star for combat, nine Air Medals, the Navy Commendation Medal for combat and two Purple Hearts. Paul Galanti learned of Kerry's speech while held captive inside North Vietnam's infamous "Hanoi Hilton" internment camp. The Navy pilot had been shot down in June 1966 and spent nearly seven years as a prisoner of war. During torture sessions, he said, his captors cited the antiwar speeches as "an example of why we should cross over to (their) side." "The Viet Cong didn't think they had to win the war on the battlefield," Galanti said, "because thanks to these protesters they were going to win it on the streets of San Francisco and Washington." He says Kerry broke a covenant among servicemen never to make public criticisms that might jeopardize those still in battle or in the hands of the enemy. Because he did, Galanti said, "John Kerry was a traitor to the men he served with." Now retired and living in Richmond, Va., Galanti, 64, refuses to cool his ire toward Kerry. "I don't plan to set it aside. I don't know anyone who does," he said. "The Vietnam Memorial has thousands of additional names due to John Kerry and others like him."
Galanti's military decorations include the Silver Star, Two Legions of Merit for combat, the Meritorious Service Medal, the Bronze Star for combat, nine Air Medals, the Navy Commendation Medal for combat and two Purple Hearts. I bet Galanti faked it like Kerry to get all of those metals. We now know that anyone with a Vietnam metal is a lying POS.
Yes, what do we really know about Galanti? "Shot down?" or bailed out? How many witnesses do we have? Why did he join the Navy instead the much more hazardous Marine Corps? One easy way for people to avoid the danger of hostile VC is to fly 30,000 feet above them. How much information did he give the North Vietnamese? It mentions his interrogation sessions, does it mention whether or not he betrayed his country? How about those purple hearts? How did he get those? Let's see those medical reports -- have they been released yet? I mean, you know, some might make consider a decorated war hero to be beyond reproach in comparison, but basically all we ever heard from Galanti himself was "war hero this" and "war hero that". He's made it the centerpiece of his allegations against Kerry. Now, if anybody thinks the above rant is uncalled for, take a number.
Quote of the Day "The dirty work thus far has been done much more to Kerry's benefit than to Bush's. Estimates from last month indicate that Democratic "leaning" 527s such as MoveOn, the Media Fund and America Coming Together had spent some $50 million on TV ads -- almost all of them attacking Bush. Much has been made by Kerry supporters of the 'positive' campaign the Democrat has run on the airwaves. But that's easy to do when you're getting support from other sources on the negative front" -- National Journal columnist Vaughn Ververs, on John Kerry's complaints about "dirty work" being done by the "527" ad group Swift Boat Veterans for Truth.
oh, sam...you once again ignore the substance for the ridiculous. how pathetic, how sad...how predictable.
In all seriousness, he is attacking Kerry for protesting publicly about a war that WE SHOULD HAVE GOTTEN OUT OF MUCH EARLIER! John Kerry was the ULTIMATE patriot when he came back and helped force the government to bring the boys home. This guy can b**** all he likes about Kerry's testimony, but I think the VAST majority of this country knows that we should not have been in Vietnam to begin with and Kerry helped bring about the end of that war.
Um, no, he was parodying you and your brethren who are doing the same thing with John Kerry's service record.
This is a more honest ad then the first because it's obvious they are still pissed about Kerry's actions after the war and this ad vents that anger. That said, I don't doubt that VC used anti-war stuff from the US to screw with the minds of POWs. But think about that for a second and consider if that is Kerry's fault or one of the prices we pay for a Democracy. On the torture and war crimes stuff, that has been documented quite well and I fail to see what is earned by saying it didn't happen. I also note that Kerry's quotes are cropped and would lead many to a different interpretation then what he really said. Yes, he could have used less inflammatory language, but he was still in his 20's and carrying the burden of representing a whole bunch of folks in a tumultuos time. In my view, his work post-tour was honorable and honest and patriotic. Face it, he could have gone straight to law school and made a bunch of bucks. He could have played ball with the Dem politicos of the day and had a political future assured. That he did neither but instead acted from conscience against a war he thought was unjust is telling. The subtext to this ad is that Kerry was ambitious and willing to do anything, including sell out vets for political gain, which is balderdash, as noted above. Just as the idea that he volunteered for Vietnam and left shrapnel in his leg intentionally, and a host of other unbelieveable and unsubstantiated charges are balderdash. However, if true, then the unambitious everyman (who happens to be the son of a President) stands in stark contrast apparently. A comment from DeeDee Myers... But it seems to me there's a huge double standard in the current presidential race. So far, Pres. Bush's early life has gone virtually unexamined. Yes, there was a dust up over the years he spent in the Texas Air National Guard, fed by conflicting recollections and incomplete documentation. But again, voters seem to have accepted the idea that until Bush gave up drinking and got serious after his 40th birthday, he was more the fraternity president of his past than the American president of his future. Meanwhile, Sen. Kerry's early life has been deeply scrutinized, beginning in high school and college. He was serious and ambitious even as a student, and while some saw that as admirable, others (including his college schoolmate, George W. Bush) mocked him for it. For better or for worse, there was never a time in John Kerry's life when he seemed either young or irresponsible. He excelled at St. Paul's and at Yale, joined the Navy, served in Vietnam, came home to lead protests against the war, went to law school and was elected Lt. Governor of Massachusetts all before his 40th birthday. So what is it about Americans that make us uncomfortable with this? Shouldn't we want a president who has worked hard his whole life, seeking to prepare himself for the kinds of life and death decisions that president's face every day? Shouldn't we want a guy who's traveled the country and world, grappled with tough issues, read and thought widely? Finally, this ad, more then the first, is preaching to the choir. Most Americans think Vietnam was a mistake. Most Americans realize we screwed up a bunch of things, and most Americans don't want to rehash the 1960's. The ad will appeal to those who still think Vietnam was a right and good cause in the nation's interest.
and who speaks for kerry? from an interview between Jim Leher and Tom Oliphant of the Boston Globe, and O'Neill: JOHN O'NEILL: Jim, one other thing, they can look at swiftvets.com, which is the web site that has a great deal of information on it. JIM LEHRER: Is there a web site that's comparable to that? I'm sure the Kerry -- TOM OLIPHANT: Yes, it's called the daily press, which is the most difficult thing for these guys to deal with. !!!! the daily press is the equivelent of swiftvets.com?!?!!!!!
basso, is everything OK? Because all day long you have been posting non-responsive, increasingly incomprehensible fragmentary anectdotes. Should I call you a car?
Kerry was relaying what had been told, not that he was thinking soldiers were all guilty of this kind of behavior... would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command. It is impossible to describe to you exactly what did happen in Detroit, the emotions in the room, the feelings of the men who were reliving their experiences in Vietnam, but they did. They relived the absolute horror of what this country, in a sense, made them do.”ohn Kerry [Senate Foreign Relations Committee Testimony, 4/22/71] Kerry didn't criticize the soldiers, rather the leadership... “We are also here to ask, and we are here to ask vehemently, where are the leaders of our country? Where is the leadership? We are here to ask where are McNamara, Rostow, Bundy, Gilpatric and so many others. Where are they now that we, the men whom they sent off to war, have returned? These are commanders who have deserted their troops, and there is no more serious crime in the law of war. The Army says they never leave their wounded. The Marines say they never leave even their dead. These men have left all the casualties and retreated behind a pious shield of public rectitude. They have left the real stuff of their reputation bleaching behind them in the sun in this country.” – John Kerry [Senate Foreign Relations Committee Testimony, 4/22/71] Mr. Kerry: My feeling, Senator, on Lieutenant Calley is what he did quite obviously was a horrible, horrible, horrible thing and I have no bone to pick with the fact that he was prosecuted. But I think that in this question you have to separate guilt from responsibility, and I think clearly the responsibility for what has happened there lies elsewhere. I think it lies with the men who designed free fire zones. I think it lies with the men who encourage body counts. [Senate Foreign Relations Committee Testimony, 4/22/71] Kerry also fought FOR soldiers after they returned... JUDY WOODRUFF: “They are saying, in effect, you were accusing American troops of war crimes.” JOHN KERRY: “No, I was accusing American leaders of abandoning the troops. And if you read what I said, it is very clearly an indictment of leadership. I said to the Senate, where is the leadership of our country? And it's the leaders who are responsible, not the soldiers. I never said that. I've always fought for the soldiers. In fact, not only did we oppose the war, but we proudly stood up and fought for the additions to the GI Bill so that vets would be able to use it. We fought for the V.A. Hospitals. I wrote the Agent Orange legislation with Tom Daschle. I helped with the post-Vietnam stress syndrome outreach centers. I'm proud of the record of fighting for soldiers and for veterans. And the fact is if we want to redebate the war on Vietnam in 2004, I'm ready for that. It was a mistake, and I'm proud of having stood up and shared with America my perceptions of what was happening.” [CNN, Inside Politics, 2/19/04] Kerry admits his language was not the best... KERRY: I thought a lot, for a long time, about that period of time, the things we said, and I think the word is a bad word. I think it's an inappropriate word. I mean, if you wanted to ask me have you ever made mistakes in your life, sure. I think some of the language that I used was a language that reflected an anger. It was honest, but it was in anger, it was a little bit excessive. [NBC, Meet the Press, 4/18/04] KERRY: It was, I think, a reflection of the kind of times we found ourselves in and I don't like it when I hear it today. I don't like it, but I want you to notice that at the end, I wasn't talking about the soldiers and the soldiers' blame, and my great regret is, I hope no soldier--I mean, I think some soldiers were angry at me for that, and I understand that and I regret that, because I love them. But the words were honest but on the other hand, they were a little bit over the top. And I think that there were breaches of the Geneva Conventions. There were policies in place that were not acceptable according to the laws of warfare, and everybody knows that. I mean, books have chronicled that, so I'm not going to walk away from that. But I wish I had found a way to say it in a less abrasive way. [NBC, Meet the Press, 4/18/04] MR. RUSSERT: But, Senator, when you testified before the Senate, you talked about some of the hearings you had observed at the winter soldiers meeting and you said that people had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and on and on. A lot of those stories have been discredited, and in hindsight was your testimony... SEN. KERRY: Actually, a lot of them have been documented. MR. RUSSERT: So you stand by that? SEN. KERRY: A lot of those stories have been documented. Have some been discredited? Sure, they have, Tim. The problem is that's not where the focus should have been. And, you know, when you're angry about something and you're young, you know, you're perfectly capable of not--I mean, if I had the kind of experience and time behind me that I have today, I'd have framed some of that differently. Needless to say, I'm proud that I stood up. I don't want anybody to think twice about it. I'm proud that I took the position that I took to oppose it. I think we saved lives, and I'm proud that I stood up at a time when it was important to stand up, but I'm not going to quibble, you know, 35 years later that I might not have phrased things more artfully at times. [NBC, Meet the Press, 4/18/04] So where's the story? The current ad tells more about the Swifties then it does John Kerry.
Interpretation 1: Basso admits the swiftvets aren't interested in the truth, but are merely a propaganda outlet. Interpretation 2: Oliphant is playing on the word "TRUTH" in the swifities title and saying that the swifties can't handle the truth. It seems they were screaming for legit media to take a look and having got their wish, they have been reduced to a joke.
Giddyup Principle I or II? Principle I, I think, but I could be mistaken. Either way, it saddens me to have to say that yours is a pale, flaccid imitation of the real thing. Giddy's years of practice honing his craft really shine through in his posts.
originally posted by Chance Contributing Member Posts: 1956 Joined: Feb 2000 Member: #1247 "08-19-2004 03:27 PM I applaud RM95 for his post. And I welcome the vote. I honestly don't think I could man up and do that if the shoe was on the other foot. I have much respect for him. basso - stop posting." http://bbs2.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=82519&perpage=30&pagenumber=3 Here is a conservative who's tired of your game, basso. I suspect he's not the only one. I apologize to Chance for quoting him, but I thought a lot of people might have missed it, and I want to add that I won't be posting in the rockbox's "Undecided" thread any longer. The only reason I did was in response to RM95's mind-blowing decision to vote for George W. Bush this November. I think Chance had a good reason to post that, basso. If he cares to elaborate, that's up to him. Again, that thread is excellent, as is the smoking ban thread. Nice stuff. This endless parade of garbage by our dear basso is getting very tiresome. I think the conservatives who support Bush, like Chance and RM95 (), can do a much better job at a higher level of discourse. Just my opinion, as always.
If you were a veteran of that war yourself, we'd be more inclined to listen to you. Kerry has critics who were with him. Aren't you forgetting that?
Loco en la cabeza. Sam's tongue-in-cheek crititicsm lacks any attachment in reality. The swiftboat vet's criticisms do not. At least they were there, too.
Kerry's critics were not "with" him as has been illustrated time and time again. None of them were on the boat with him and ALL of those who were talk of Kerry in glowing terms, as many of the swiftvets did while they were IN Vietnam.
