1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

Former Astros Tracking Thread

Discussion in 'Houston Astros' started by torque, Apr 4, 2016.

  1. sealclubber1016

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2010
    Messages:
    15,684
    Likes Received:
    18,133
    It's Berkmans fault for not undergoing the super special coaching Edgar Martinez did to unlock a whole bunch of extra power out of nowhere in his 30's.

    Seriously though, Berkman isn't without blame for not taking better care of himself (by his own admission). Berkman was an absurdly gifted hitter, but once you hit your 30's your body starts to fight you and the things you got away with in your 20's don't fly. You don't start falling apart, but you do have to start making an effort.

    The raw cumulative numbers simply weren't there for Puma, even if he was an elite hitter in his prime. And his prime wasn't elite enough to overcome the numbers shortcoming.
     
  2. awc713

    awc713 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2012
    Messages:
    5,825
    Likes Received:
    4,826
    If Hoffman is a first ballot guy, then Wags should be in as well. That’s all I know…that and the BBWAA is maddening.
     
    msn likes this.
  3. Nick

    Nick Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 1999
    Messages:
    44,564
    Likes Received:
    10,153
    Berkman shouldn’t have been knocked out on the first ballot… but if he ultimately is a border-line guy (suggested by every HOF monitor metric out there), what difference does it make?
     
    HTown2017Champs likes this.
  4. leroy

    leroy Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2002
    Messages:
    24,896
    Likes Received:
    7,111
    They aren't allowed to use any current players because of the lockout.
     
  5. juicystream

    juicystream Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2001
    Messages:
    28,042
    Likes Received:
    3,896
    It is weird how Edgar Martinez is in, while Lance Berkman didn't get any real consideration. They have very similar stat lines. I'm guessing the lack of 2K hits was what really did Berkman in. Without his knee and back injuries, he'd probably have made it.
     
  6. Nick

    Nick Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 1999
    Messages:
    44,564
    Likes Received:
    10,153
    Yeah, he’s right there. Those 2-3 lost seasons where he was injured, didn’t commit to fitness, and ultimately struggled were huge.

    He was as naturally gifted a hitter as any hitter in Astros history. That’s what probably made him so frustrating towards Bagwell/Biggio who had to work hard every single day to maintain the level of production they were able to do… and Berkman just rolled out of bed hitting while eating twinkies and shrugging his shoulders.
     
  7. Nook

    Nook Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2008
    Messages:
    45,090
    Likes Received:
    76,414
    Yeah, there is even more to it than that..... Lance isn't in the Hall of Fame because Lance didn't really care about being in the Hall of Fame..... he was without question the laziest player on the Houston Astros when I worked for them and from what long term employees have told me, there has never been anyone even close. There were others that were having off the field issues and drug issues that struggled working on their craft - but that wasn't Berkman at all. Lance never got in trouble and never had an unexcused absence - he just did not do anything. He did not watch his diet at all, he did not work on his fielding at all (he did not like chasing flyballs as an outfielder and at first claimed it hurt his feet). He would only take batting practice if it was shortened and was his idea, and he didn't have to wait his turn........ basically the only thing Lance did was stretch before the game, and even then he didn't stretch, he made the trainer stretch him.

    Bagwell and Berkman got along well when I was with the Astros. It was Bagwell that was always trying to motivate Berkman and keep him positive. It was Bagwell who would tell Berkman he could be the greatest Astro ever if he would go into the weight room with him and modify his diet. They did eventually get Lance to maintain about the same weight, but they never got him in the weight room or even running stadium drills. I don't remember Biggio having much to do with Berkman, but that isn't a shock as Craig respected hard workers but he wasn't someone that had many friends unless he met them when he was a young player. The bond between Biggio and Bagwell was based on respect, they were very different people.

    Berkman also could be very negative and opinionated, which didn't go over well with a lot of his teammates.

    The old joke about Lance with those around the team was that we knew he was the one guy not juicing because he didn't want to put in the effort.

    Still one of my favorite Astro hitters of all time and his wife is a very nice person, or was 15 years ago.
     
  8. juicystream

    juicystream Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2001
    Messages:
    28,042
    Likes Received:
    3,896
    A modern day Babe Ruth, but in a league of highly paid full-time players with advanced training and a much larger talent pool.
     
    raining threes likes this.
  9. Nick

    Nick Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 1999
    Messages:
    44,564
    Likes Received:
    10,153
    Always appreciate the insight!

    These stories get rehashed by you and others every 3-5 years or so… that and the Ausmus ones. Certainly hope they don’t continue to get embellished as in 20 years time, there will be a version that says Lance didn’t even bathe… didn’t wear socks… didn’t have customized bats… didn’t care who’s glove he used… didn’t open his eyes when he was at the plate…etc. (lol).

    Lance did commit on a different level in his post Astros/Yankees time, and was probably in the best shape of his life as a Cardinal…. And it bought him 2-3 more very productive years and a WS ring… but he only commited to that when his numbers went into the tank and he was no longer able to get away with previous habits and lack of regimen based on age affecting is god-given ability.
     
    #3149 Nick, Dec 16, 2021
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2021
    raining threes and Nook like this.
  10. Nick

    Nick Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 1999
    Messages:
    44,564
    Likes Received:
    10,153
    I know a lot like to scoff at Lance around here… but to be as productive a hitter as he was over 10 years with little commitment to taking care of himself… but still not succumbing to the nagging injuries that sometimes have kept guys like Brantley/Springer/Correa/bregman out for extended periods of time.
     
  11. SuraGotMadHops

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2009
    Messages:
    4,322
    Likes Received:
    3,599
    I knew Lance was fat and lazy when he was the only player absolutely gassed between rounds of the homerun derby.
     
  12. Nook

    Nook Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2008
    Messages:
    45,090
    Likes Received:
    76,414
    Agreed, and in fairness to Lance, while he isn't in the Hall of Fame he still had some amazing statistics. His career OPS is top 30 all time and he is second all time in OPS for switch hitters, only behind Mantle and ahead of Chipper Jones. Berkman also typically hit well in key situations.... he always showed up when it was game time and while he wasn't the most pleasant person in the locker room, he never had any strong issues with any of his teammates as far as I can remember.

    I (and others) look at what he COULD have been, but even with less than great effort, he still was one of the greatest players to ever play the game.... in 125 years of baseball only 30 players had a higher career OPS, that is amazing.
     
  13. awc713

    awc713 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2012
    Messages:
    5,825
    Likes Received:
    4,826
    Shoutout to Lance’s 8th inning grand slam in the NLDS vs the Braves before Ausmus’ game tying shot in the 9th (before Burke in the 18th). Big moment player for sure, if that’s really a thing.
     
  14. Nick

    Nick Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 1999
    Messages:
    44,564
    Likes Received:
    10,153
    Who knows... maybe if he gave more of a **** and hit the gym more, trained more, was overall more active... it may have actually backfired. Maybe he gets more minor injuries that comes with excessive strain. With more focus on statistics and scouting reports, maybe his brain gets in the way of being one of the best instinctual hitters the Astros have ever had.

    He had 10 consecutive years with the Astros where he was a flat-out elite hitter. Even Altuve won't match that.
     
    Nook likes this.
  15. Squirtle

    Squirtle Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2010
    Messages:
    1,510
    Likes Received:
    1,476
    Interesting stuff on Lance, but nothing too surprising to me. One of the most talented hitters I've seen, but as you say his work ethic left a lot to be desired.
     
    raining threes likes this.
  16. phasors28

    phasors28 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    350
    Likes Received:
    707
    Former Astros Great

     
  17. jim1961

    jim1961 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2010
    Messages:
    12,765
    Likes Received:
    5,976
  18. awc713

    awc713 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2012
    Messages:
    5,825
    Likes Received:
    4,826
    I wish we’d bring back Wandy for a first pitch or something. Dude was low key nice. Kinda like Keuchel to a lesser extent…was a really nice SP3…could low key mow them down, his stat sheet is interesting, reliable and durable for a good long while.
     
  19. Snake Diggit

    Snake Diggit Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2012
    Messages:
    7,686
    Likes Received:
    7,520
    Funny you compare Wandy to Keuchel:

    Wandy career: 19.9 fwar over 1557 ip
    Keuchel so far: 20.8 fwar over 1527 ip

    Wandy was very underrated and one of my all time favorite Astros.
     
  20. Joe Joe

    Joe Joe Go Stros!
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 1999
    Messages:
    20,187
    Likes Received:
    8,912
    Wandy never had that peak season of Keuchel. Screenshot 2021-12-20 102312.png
     

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now