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For MadMax - A Better Explanation

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout' started by thacabbage, Nov 3, 2001.

  1. thacabbage

    thacabbage Contributing Member

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    You started a thread a while back, addressing specific Quran'ic quotes. If I'm not mistaken, you found them in a publication because coincidentally, I received an email regarding them. The author's name is Chris Johnson. I have no idea who he is, though.

    [end of cabbage]
    **

    For instance, the writer says:

    The Qur'an tells us: ... "kill the disbelievers
    wherever we find them" (2:191), "murder them and treat
    them harshly" (9:123)...


    But what does the Holy Text of the Qur'an say? Here is the actual wording for the first "quote":

    002.190 Fight in the cause of God THOSE WHO FIGHT YOU, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors.

    002.191 And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but IF THEY FIGHT YOU, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.

    002.192 But IF THEY CEASE, GOD IS OFT-FORGIVING, MOST MERCIFUL.

    002.193 And fight them on UNTIL THERE IS NO MORE TUMULT OR OPPRESSION, and there prevail justice and faith in God; but IF THEY CEASE, LET THERE BE NO HOSTILITY except to those who practise oppression.

    Here Muhammad (peace be upon Him!) was counseling Muslims to defend themselves against the enemies who, from every side, were actively seeking to exterminate Islam through butchery and terrorism. It's a call for self-defense, completely in keeping with His oft-repeated command -- which I quote in my book -- that Muslims "begin not hostilities". His explicit point is, don't start a fight. If someone else attacks you, defend yourself vigorously. Stop fighting when they stop, because God is loving and
    merciful and abhors violence!

    What about the supposed command to "murder them and treat them harshly"? The only thing being murdered here is the text of the Qur'an. Here's how it really reads:

    009.123 O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers WHO GIRD YOU ABOUT, and let them find firmness in you: and know that God is with those who fear Him.

    There's no mention here of "murder". The command is to "fight" those "who gird you about" -- meaning the pagans who were at that time beseiging Medina, and preparing to slaughter and torture its citizens. The counsel, as in all other cases, is self-defense.

    Ironically, a few verses further we read:

    009.128 Now hath come unto you an Apostle from amongst yourselves: it grieves him that ye should perish: ardently anxious is he over you: to the Believers is he most kind and merciful.

    009.129 But IF THEY [ the enemies] TURN AWAY, SAY: "GOD SUFFICETH ME: there is no god but He: On Him is my trust,- He the Lord of the Throne (of Glory) Supreme!"

    Another horrific lie: According to this writer, the Qur'an asks Muslims to "slay or crucify or cut the hands and feet of the unbelievers, that they be expelled from the land with disgrace and that they shall have a great punishment in world hereafter" (5:34). But what does the Qur'an really say?

    Here is the Text:

    005.034 Then God sent a raven, who scratched the ground, to show him how to hide the shame of his brother. "Woe is me!" said he; "Was I not even able to be as this raven, and to hide the shame of my brother?" then he became full of regrets-

    005.035 On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person -- unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land -- it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.

    005.036 The punishment of those WHO WAGE WAR AGAINST GOD AND HIS APOSTLE, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy
    punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

    005.037 EXCEPT FOR THOSE WHO REPENT before they fall into your power: in that case, know that God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

    Again, this penalty is ordained for "those who wage war against God and His Apostle" -- in other words, who arise to destroy Islam or subvert public order. (Terrorists of any stripe are a good example.) For these there is ordained a variety of optional punishments, ranging from execution to banishment. (The context suggests that punishment be proportional to the crime.) Those who repent are spared, and the preamble makes it clear that
    God abhors violence.

    Another poison-pen accusation is this:

    Although we [Muslims] are asked to be compassionate amongst each other, we have to be "harsh with unbelievers", our Christian, Jewish and Atheist neighbours and colleagues (48:29).


    This is toxic nonsense. The "unbelievers" mentioned in the cited verse are the pagan idolaters who were, as noted above, were at that time terrorizing the Islamic minority. Concerning these,

    Muhammad says:

    047.004 Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): THEREAFTER (IS THE TIME FOR) EITHER GENEROSITY OR RANSOM: UNTIL THE WAR LAYS DOWN ITS BURDENS.

    The context is a defensive war for survival. "Until the war lays down its burdens", captured prisoners are treated with generosity, or held for ransom. It is in this context -- a specific war, in the infancy of Islam -- that God reveals the above-quoted verse:

    048.029 Muhammad is the apostle of God; and those who are with him are STRONG AGAINST UNBELIEVERS, (but) compassionate amongst each other. Thou wilt see them bow and prostrate themselves (in prayer), seeking Grace from
    God and (His) Good Pleasure.

    The point here is NOT that modern Muslims are to be "harsh" with anyone, least of all their Christian, Jewish or atheist friends. It is that Muslims who were, at that time, in fear for their lives were to be "strong against unbelievers" seeking to harm them. What is wrong with that? In another ghastly distortion, the author writes:

    As for him who does not believe in Islam, the Prophet announces with a "stern command": "Seize ye him, and bind ye him, And
    burn ye him in the Blazing Fire. Further, make him
    march in a chain, whereof the length is seventy
    cubits! This was he that would not believe in Allah
    Most High... (69:30-37).

    This makes it sound as if Muhammad wants every Muslim to seize every convenient non-Muslim, burn him alive, then make him "march in a chain". This is hokum. The true context is a description of the next life. It foreshadows what God will say concerning violators who blaspheme and defy His will. This admittedly threatening vision applies to terrorists and
    suicide bombers who dishonor Islam by committing atrocities in its name. It may even, for all I know, apply to lying hypocrites who slander the Qur'an and its Prophet! What it does NOT apply to is the conduct of any Muslim towards any earthly neighbor.

    Contrary to the statement above, the Qur'an does NOT condemn all who reject Islam. It says: "Those who believe in the Qur'an, those who follow the Jewish scriptures, and the Sabeans and the Christians -- ANY WHO BELIEVE IN GOD AND THE LAST DAY, AND WORK RIGHTEOUSNESS -- on them shall be no fear,
    nor shall they grieve" (Qur'an 5:72). (As any reasonable student of comparative religion will recognize, this verse extendssalvation to followers of just about every major world religion, and scores of non-major ones. The Qur'an particularly describes Christians as "nearest in love" to Muslims, and highly praises those who sincerely follow the Gospel -- Qur'an
    5:85-88.)

    The fictionalized "quotes" this writer circulates embody tons more
    perversion-of-text stuff. I've scanned as many as I could stand, and every one I've looked up is twisted into something sick and sadistic -- something utterly foreign to its real intent. Same goes for the bastardized "history" that follows the so-called quotes. This hatchet job is by someone with a vicious hatred of Islam and utter contempt for the intelligence of the average reader.

    **
     
  2. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    actually i got the quotes from the Koran from a book comparing the Muslim and Christians leaders during the crusades. the author painted a very favorable picture of the Muslim leaders, particularly Saladin, and a horrific picture of the Christians and their leaders. Nevertheless, I appreciate your post. I've never had my name in the subject line before!! :)
     

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