For how long will justice be muted? Iraqi war against Kuwait.

I've missed you.

 

Just so we are clear on this maybe we should post a list of topics that can be discussed. Or maybe we can respect free speech on this BBS. I'm not defending anything this guy has posted, but I'll damn sure defend his right to post it.

 

Htownhero....guess what? You don't have any right to post anything here...This is Clutch's site. If he wishes, he can wipe you just for not liking your style or whatever......

However, Clutch and crew is very fair and respectful of differing views and voices....

With that said, I think BrianKagy has presented a solid reason on why Q8 Rocket has been warned as his subsequent vile, ill and negative posts are unacceptable.

It is not very often, Clutch and crew deem a poster to be adverse in the nature of his posts to this bbs and I stand behind them 100% on this without a doubt.

 

I don't mind if Q8 is warned (or anyone else for that matter) as long as others get equal time. I don't care what the viewpoint. If you post stupid crap on a regular basis, you should get the boot. I think the big problem is what is seen as "stupid" can be an issue because not even all the admins agree on that.

 

Brian, I will agree that spouting off hatred against an ethnic or religious groups is just plain disguting. But I think Q8 should be allowed to say his viewpoint on Israel. To criticize Israel is not the same as criticizing Jews. The U.S. has supported Israel without reservation for too long in my opinion, and I think more Americans should understand that there are two sides to the conflict. And the fact is, our board needs someone who views Israel from a Middle Eastern perspective. Maybe we won't agree with him, but it's always good insight to know how someone else thinks and feels.

If Q8 makes blanket statements about all Jews, then go ahead and ban him. But if he criticizes Israel, he should be left alone.

My opinion - nothing more.

 

With that said, I think BrianKagy has presented a solid reason on why Q8 Rocket has been warned as his subsequent vile, ill and negative posts are unacceptable.

Then you know what? BrianKagy can use his ignore option, thats what its there for.

However, Clutch and crew is very fair and respectful of differing views and voices....

Precisely what makes this site great.

It is not very often, Clutch and crew deem a poster to be adverse in the nature of his posts to this bbs and I stand behind them 100% on this without a doubt.

I stand behind them 100% as well, however, I fail to see where criticizing Isreal fits those criteria.

 

Because its not "criticizing Israel", its hate-filled, Anti-Semitic propaganda. Slight difference there.

P.S. - This is Clutch's BBS, there is no right to free speech. You post at the tolerance of Clutch and the remainder of the crew. They are the law.

 

Why don't viewpoints asking for the total destruction of Islamic countries or groups (such as the Palestinians) get the same type of rebuke? It seems to me this is one of the reasons we always maintain such an awkward view of the Israel/Palestinian conflict. Our media follows many of these same types of policies, and that's why I have no clue if we get any kind of accurate portrayal of the conflict over there, or if we are getting a pro-Israeli tilt.

No doubt that Q8's words are extremist to us. However, I have seen just as bad from the opposite viewpoint go without challenge. Personally, I think views (however wacky) on the situation from people who live both in Kuwait and Israel (and other ME countries) are the best insight we get into the true feelings of people who actually live this every day rather than see it on TV and in magazines.

We've missed you, Kagy

 

Nice to have you back BK.

I didn't read Q8's thread, so I won't offer my opinion one way or the other.

 

q8's posts were definitely anti-semitic. I do, however, wonder how much less anti-Muslim people such as Treeman's posts really are. At times, they strike me as bigotry cloaked behind a slightly more sophisticated veneer.

At times, it's very true that courtesy and the willingness to not say things in an incendiary manner are important. But I would hope he's at least issued a warning as well at some point.

Note: Don't read this as a defense of Q8, you'll note that I didn't even bother showing up in his threads. No point in doing so, as far as I could tell.

 

shanna, I must've missed the post(s) asking for Palestine to be destroyed. If such posts existed, and if they based their argument for the destruction of such countries on anti-Islamic hatred and propoganda, relying on nothing but overtly biased sources, and if they continued to post such hate-mongering viewpoints again and again... well I would say that someone posting such a viewpoint should also be warned. I don't think that inflammatory anti-semetic (not merely anti-Israeli) rhetoric has any place on this board, any more than other forms of hate speech has a place here.

 

What about the posts, even, basically suggesting we use nuclear weapons in Iraq? Before you think "oh, well that's just a hard-line response to terrorism," think again.

Some of the political scientists I study with are some of the more conservative, hard-line realists in academics. Political science is generally a field dominated by liberals, but at BC's an exception to this rule.

Due to this, I've had the opportunity to study with some very prestigious, very Realist thinkers like Robert Ross, Rintala, and (less conservative, but hardly liberal... he was a high ranking nuclear analyst in the foreign service during the Cold War) Donald Hafner.

Not a single one of these conservative thinkers would even consider the viability of some of the more... ahh... aggressive proposals contained on this bbs. In fact, I specifically remember Ross joking in my seminar about the "idiots calling in who want to handle this like a sheriff in a Western."

The idea of some sort of mass invasion, occupation, limited nuclear war, deportation of Palestinians (yes, there has actually been a post like that by a fairly regular poster, not to name-names) is absurd. It's not credible. It's not a "good argument." It's not exercising free speech effectively.

It's bigotry and paranoia cloaked in a Hawkish policy. It implicitly means: Arab civilian lives aren't as important as American lives. People have been attempting to justify these horrible things in the name of justice. They don't go right out and say "I don't like Arabs," but if you read between the lines, it's there.

I've been particularly disheartened by some of the responses to my "lists" of injustices inflicted against the Palestinians. I figured if I stayed completely factual and listed things that Americans usually reaaally sympathize with, I'd get some positive responses. Some people didn't care. Some people even bothered to defend Israeli policy. Come on. Even if you support Israel for Realist, geopolitical reasons one would think we could all agree their policy towards the inhabitants of the occupied territories and even Arab-Israelis is racist and fascist.
And that's something we need to be very careful of. But people just kept trying to justify it. And that's not right. People have all these principles concerning "democracy," "equality of opportunity," "fair trial," and "the free market..." but yet when such things are deliberately prohibited from a class of people that some happen to not like very much... these principles disappear.

My point? Yes, q8 was a bigot. But I think we also need to look at the bigotry that many more "respectable" posters have implicitly espoused.

 

Sam,

How do we know if, to Q8, this is propaganda? For all we know, this is what people in the ME are exposed to everyday. If that's the case, then kicking him out is just going to make him believe we are as biased as they think we are. The only way to enact change is to let people speak their mind and prove them wrong.

Yes, I understand that we certainly don't want hate-speech, etc, etc, but is anyone really going to change their mind reading that thread? I guess I just see it as an opportunity to better see how people (or at least one person) over in the ME think and what they are exposed to. Maybe if we can show him why he's wrong, it might be more effective than saying "screw it, you're gone.".

I agree that inflammatory hate speech and all doesn't have its place here, but I think the discussion is an important one and hopefully people can show him the other side of the story which he may not have had much opportunity to see (I am assuming the guy still lives in Kuwait).

Just my thoughts...

 

The day of or the day after Sept 11th, Clutch or another admin (don't remember who exactly) DID close a thread (at least one) that called for exterminating Muslims. In fact I think DaDakota even had to back off his invade the Middle East thread. So it does work both ways.

Is free speech and an open forum concept absolute? I don't think it is or should be. Q8's conspiracy theories are by their nature unconfirmable. To complete the circle the sources would conclude that you can't confirm it because of the Jews controlling the media. Convienent. While they aren't verifiable they ARE incendiary at best and anti-Semitic at worst. Either way they don't really contribute anything more to these same topics than we've already heard.

And what media tilt? We all see and have been seeing Palestinians and Israelis kill each other for quite a while. What are we supposed to be missing that they're covering up? AIDS conspiracy theories? There comes a point where you do have to decide for yourself how much credibility a source has, and Q8's drivel would fail most people's standard.

 

What about the garbage MrSpur keeps on posting or Treemens views on Middle Eastern countries. Maybe you shoudl be fair both ways. I am not agreeing with anything Q8 has to say, but it seems like the above two mention the same kind of crap against Islam.

 

Here's a quote from another thread:

http://bbs.clutchcity.net/php3/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23066

<I>The vast majority of Palestinians want to see Israel destroyed and support all violence against Jews. Once Israel is destroyed and large portions of its population are killed or dispersed, no doubt the remainder will be permitted to live under conditions resembling those of the Copts in Egypt or the Armenians and Bahais in Iran. That is the only peace Arabs want. </I>

Quoted from an article by an Israeli Professor.

There's propaganda everywhere -- how much of this particular article is true, I have no clue. But then, I have no clue how much is true from Q8's articles. To be honest, I don't trust either source because they are both likely biased, but I do think its fun to have the opportunity to challenge the material and bash the sources.

Just my opinions again...

 

How do we know if, to Q8, this is propaganda? For all we know, this is what people in the ME are exposed to everyday. If that's the case, then kicking him out is just going to make him believe we are as biased as they think we are. The only way to enact change is to let people speak their mind and prove them wrong.

shanna (weren't you going to change your name?), I'm less than interested with changing Q8 Rocket's mind. In fact, I seriously doubt that a basketball BBS is going to do that, anyway. I am concerned with the quality of discourse at the BBS. And I am concerned with preventing exceedingly offensive hate-based speech on the board.

Maybe if we can show him why he's wrong, it might be more effective than saying "screw it, you're gone.".

See above. I don't think we can prove to him that he is wrong, based on a basketball fan's message board. And I think meanwhile the extremely negative value of his posts on this subject far outweigh the positive.

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The idea of some sort of mass invasion, occupation, limited nuclear war, deportation of Palestinians (yes, there has actually been a post like that by a fairly regular poster, not to name-names) is absurd. It's not credible. It's not a "good argument." It's not exercising free speech effectively.

It's bigotry and paranoia cloaked in a Hawkish policy. It implicitly means: Arab civilian lives aren't as important as American lives. People have been attempting to justify these horrible things in the name of justice. They don't go right out and say "I don't like Arabs," but if you read between the lines, it's there.

haven, don't you think there's a difference? I mean, obviously in this country it is understandable that we consider American lives more important than the lives of foreign citizens. Couldn't the dichotomy be simply American versus foreign (be it any other nationality) rather than a racist, bigoted viewpoint of American versus Arabs? I think similar things would be said if we were invading Albania, Russia, or Sweden.

But I agree some might have crossed the lines on the other side as well. I don't think we should be tolerant of extremist, racially-motivated viewpoints, regardless of which side of the argument they or we are one.

 

First let me say that I'm not on either side....I think they are all @$$holes .....BUT the evidence supports the above quote and Q8 has even admitted to these feelings in one of his posts.

In 1916 the Sykes-Picot Agreement gave control of the southern portion of what was theOttoman Empire to France and Britain.
In 1923, Britain takes this area and splits it. The larger area that lay east of the Dead Sea (75% of the area the British controlled) was to be given to the Arabs as their land. The area between the coast and the Dead Sea was to be given to the Jews for the specific purpose of the creation of their homeland.

Now between 1923 and 1946, there is a LOT of conflict in Jewish Palestine (the 25% area) between the Arabs that still live in the territory and the Jews. It comes to a head with the "Arab Revolt" in 1936 where Arabs begin terrorist operations against the Jews

It's 1947 and now the UN passes Resolution 181UN resolution 181 that now, in order to make the remaining Arab population in the Jewish territory happy, further splits the area (the 25% area) to add another Arab state within the Jewish area. It's loosely defined by population centers. The Jews accept this resolution and the Arabs reject it. Regardless, on May 14, 1948 Israel is born along lines of Resolution 181 determination (the lines drawn by that reso) and the next day, 7 Arab nations attack Israel.

With that small bit out of the way it seems to me, as an outsider, that after being given a large portion of land, the Arabs simply don't want it. They want it ALL and regardless of what little more bits of Jewish Palistien were carved out, they simply wouldn't be content until the Jews were gone. There's more than enough land there but they're not happy until they have it all. (Q8 you said this yourself)

Israel is not going anywhere... they're not going to just roll over and give it upSAMSON OPTION .
The Arabs won't stop -- I repeat, WON'T STOP -- until they get back all of the land between the Dead Sea and the coast. Hamas and the PLFP don't want just a Palestinian state,they've already rejected this... they want THE state... the whole of Palistien that the British had control of in 1916. They don't plan to stop until that goal is reached.

So we come to this... So who's trying to force out who ?