1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

For Hope Les Needs to Forget About the Cap and JVG, too.

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by glynch, Dec 12, 2004.

Tags:
  1. glynch

    glynch Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2000
    Messages:
    18,072
    Likes Received:
    3,601
    As noted, we are the oldest team in the league. We are additionally perhaps the least talented in spots 3 through 12, though some of these players were good previously and occasionally give us glimpses of their past. We have no trade bait at all. At best 3 through 12 would only yield a sub or two for a contending team. In a couple of years when the expiring contracts mature some of our 3 through 12 will have value, Mo, Howard, Ward, etc., BUT THAT ISN'T NOW.

    If you take the team of several years ago , which was also still rebuilidng. we let 5 of our six most talented palyers go, Posey, Steve, Cuttino, Cato, Eddie (excluding Yao) and we only got T-Mac plus discards.

    In addition our stars are not the type to carry a good team by themselves. Nor are they at this time clearly the top two punch combo in the League which would be required to lug the deadwood past more than a first round exit.

    Yao is an incomplete player and a mystery. Why is he not making progress in his third year? The coach? The system? Overwork? At least partly it is clear he needs the complement of an actual strong forward so he can pass and shoot and not tire himself out with ineffective banging, which is not his forte.

    T-Mac appears to be at his best as either a playmaker, but that implies someone to finish the plays, or as a scorer who has some running buddies and isn't constantly double teamed..

    The only way around this without waiting years is to buy probably three quality starters even if you go over the cap till the deadwood comes off. Sure try to minimize the cost with the trade exception or whatever. Perhaps we could pay half the salary of Mo or Howard if anyone thinks they can use them.

    Once you have some talent then you can tweak things by making some trades if you need to do so. Look at Dallas after they amassed some talent last year even though it was somewhat mismatched. They could trade.

    We would be lucky to get three or four adequate role players out of our 3 through 12 cast. However, if you factor in some luck in the draft or talent acquired for expiring contracts we could realistically hope for an adequate cast once we obtain some starters.

    Les will only have to pay the cap fees till the deadwood comes off, perhaps even a year early, as expiring contracts. He has a new arena and the marketing phenomena of Yao so he should put out.

    The alternative to buying some talent is several years of suffering and hoping on the improbable of making only great relatively one sided trades or striking it lucky in the draft. T-Mac and Yao may well keep us out of the lottery.

    It will be necessary to get some talent or Yao should leave or be traded. Minnesota was in a similar talent shortage awhile back and had to do something to keep KG. They basically bought Sam, Sprewell, and less noteworthy, Olowokandi. As McHale said at the time, he felt it was a buyers mareket for talent as everyone else was obessed over cap issues. We need to do something similar. Hopefully it isn't too late to follow Minnesota's lead..

    To be fair to JVG nobody could beat Dallas, San Antonio,( short of a T-Mac once in a lifetime miracle), or the other numerous talented teams with this crew. Nevertheless JVG merits dismissal for several reasons. First he let go of Eddie and went with the offfensively challenged but obedient older guys in his image. Second it is his offense and no-fun style that stinks. Third rather than a plus as with Rudy, we now have a coach few with offensive talent and superior athleticism would care to play for. This is a real drawback when trying to up the talent level.
     
    #1 glynch, Dec 12, 2004
  2. Batman Jones

    Batman Jones Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 1999
    Messages:
    15,937
    Likes Received:
    5,491
    You're way off on Eddie Griffin. That situation was nobody's fault but Eddie's.

    And MN bought those guys in a buyer's market, yeah. But this year's market was anything but.

    We have the problems we have now because we bought high (Mo, Cato, Moochie, Maloney, etc.). To sign FA's now, we'd have to buy higher. Our squad sucks now and I hate to see it, but better that now than repeating and multiplying our mistakes with more bad contracts. There's not a Cassell or an Olowokandi out there now for the MLE. Those types of guys are getting big money now. And the vast majority of them are the Maurice Taylors of tomorrow. What'd Derek Fisher get this year?
     
    #2 Batman Jones, Dec 12, 2004
  3. DaDakota

    DaDakota Balance wins
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 1999
    Messages:
    128,993
    Likes Received:
    39,475
    BM,

    I totally disagree with you about Eddie.

    The team owned his rights and voluntarily gave them up.

    Sure, he deserved to be suspended, but why did we have to cut him when we had to pay him anyway?

    Ah well.

    DD
     
    #3 DaDakota, Dec 12, 2004
  4. richirich

    richirich Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2003
    Messages:
    1,429
    Likes Received:
    1
    So the next year will show us how serious Les is about improving the product. I would also like to see Carroll Dawson replaced. Everything else here sounds like the right direction. This team and its past mistakes, bad contracts, is becoming Stepienesque. The playing framework as laid out by Van Grumpy is ....... words escape me...... unacceptable! If this keeps up I might start watching the Texans.
     
    #4 richirich, Dec 12, 2004
  5. jopatmc

    jopatmc Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2002
    Messages:
    15,370
    Likes Received:
    390
    I think the truth about Eddie is he was an immature screwball kid when we drafted him who was way in over his head, had no idea how to be a professional and had to go through hell to figure it out. The problem is, nobody in the Rockets organization supported him throughout his problems and his rehab save Steve and Cat.

    And the problem is, Van Gundy claims to be loyal to his players. This was a situation that anybody could see coming a mile off. Eddie went to rehab, starting working out, got on the right track with John Lucas, got hungry, and was determined to get back in the league. The Rockets didn't bite. They were too fearful of what would happen if he came back and screwed up again apparently, which he could still do in Minny. But the fact of the matter is, if you are loyal to your players, you develop a support system for them to help them and hopefully prevent that from happening again. And if it does happen again, ala Tarpley, it won't destroy the franchise. What destroys a franchise is when players on the team no longer want to play for the coach and players not on the team no longer want to come play here because they see other players being treated like pieces of meat instead of human beings.

    We've got the same situation brewing with Boki right now minus all the bad behavior by the player. This one will burn us for years as well because another team will be getting a good player with skills who is not a problem child but is a hard working professional. But he sits on IL with this team while the guys playing are knocking the paint off the rims with their brick laying. There is no explanation for it.
     
    #5 jopatmc, Dec 12, 2004
  6. mbiker

    mbiker Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2003
    Messages:
    558
    Likes Received:
    1
    I am sooo tired of hearing about Eddie Griffin. To beat-up a women when you’re an average sized man is a horrible crime, but to beat up a women when you’re a 6-foot-9-inch, 210 pound athlete is pathetic. Then to go find a gun and chase her out into the street and shoot at her is insanity. If Eddie Griffin wasn’t a rich NBA player he would be in jail right now for attempted murder. Lucky for him he was a bad shoot or he would be sitting in Huntsville right now.

    I applauded the Rockets decision to put ethics over monetary gain. It’s a shame that most teams and corporations don’t do that. I would rather cheer for good people and lose than cheer for scum and win.


    Announcer: Eddie Griffin pulls down his 15th rebound of the game.
    Timberwolves Fan#1: Yeah! Eddie is the greatest!
    Timberwolves Fan #2: Daddy, I want to be just like Eddie Griffin when I grow up.
    Timberwolves Fan #1: Son, you don’t want to be exactly like Eddie.
    Timberwolves Fan #2: Why not Dad he’s the greatest?
    Timberwolves Fan#1: Son, were going to have long to talk during commercial break.
    Commercial Voice: …. and buy Cealis today.
    Timberwolves Fan #2: Dad, What’s Cealis?
    Timberwolves Fan#1: Son lets go outside and play catch.


     
    #6 mbiker, Dec 12, 2004
  7. Man

    Man Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2003
    Messages:
    2,945
    Likes Received:
    13
    I like the idea. I really hope Les does that..

    Campaign? lol

    Right now our supporting cast just isn't good enough.
     
    #7 Man, Dec 12, 2004
  8. Glish21

    Glish21 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2003
    Messages:
    469
    Likes Received:
    7
    I think it all comes down to developement. Eddie was pretty much terrible here and never got better with us, and I have seen barely any improvement from Yao. We just don't deal with young players well
     
    #8 Glish21, Dec 12, 2004
  9. JunkyardDwg

    JunkyardDwg Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2000
    Messages:
    8,703
    Likes Received:
    841
    Are you a part of the organization and privy to such information as whether or not EG got the help he needed when he was here (and how much). Cause if not, you have no business making that statement.

    And I'm really sick of people bringing him up again and again and again. He had problems, constantly recurring problems that resulted in a rather dangerous situation involving a gun. I for one am not sorry the Rockets didn't pamper another high-paid superstar and keep him no matter what. I am sorry they wasted 3 draft picks on him. And honestly, him leaving was probably the best thing for both parties, cause he needed a fresh start.
     
    #9 JunkyardDwg, Dec 12, 2004
  10. wireonfire

    wireonfire Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    2,665
    Likes Received:
    10
    The franchise value of the Rox is up 33% in a year. Les should open up his purse a little more and get some good players.
     
    #10 wireonfire, Dec 12, 2004
  11. NetsFan2002

    NetsFan2002 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2002
    Messages:
    132
    Likes Received:
    0
    I didn't understand either.
    I think probabaly he had a bad relationship with JVG in the training camp.
     
    #11 NetsFan2002, Dec 12, 2004
  12. NetsFan2002

    NetsFan2002 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2002
    Messages:
    132
    Likes Received:
    0
    I devote all I have to support your opinion.
    This team is in desperate need of quality role players.
     
    #12 NetsFan2002, Dec 12, 2004
  13. richirich

    richirich Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2003
    Messages:
    1,429
    Likes Received:
    1
    wireonfire: where are you hearing that the franchise value is up 33% in one year? would like to hear more.
     
    #13 richirich, Dec 12, 2004
  14. wireonfire

    wireonfire Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    2,665
    Likes Received:
    10
    #14 wireonfire, Dec 12, 2004
  15. glynch

    glynch Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2000
    Messages:
    18,072
    Likes Received:
    3,601
    The franchise value of the Rox is up 33% in a year. Les should open up his purse a little more and get some good players

    Interesting and a very good point.




    I think the truth about Eddie is he was an immature screwball kid when we drafted him who was way in over his head, had no idea how to be a professional and had to go through hell to figure it out. The problem is, nobody in the Rockets organization supported him throughout his problems and his rehab save Steve and Cat.

    And the problem is, Van Gundy claims to be loyal to his players. This was a situation that anybody could see coming a mile off. Eddie went to rehab, starting working out, got on the right track with John Lucas, got hungry, and was determined to get back in the league. The Rockets didn't bite

    So true and many of us on this bbs said as much.

    To clarify my other point. We need talent. No matter what the position. With talent we can eventually make some more trades. Cuban with the Mavericks has made some stupid trades, or had redundant talent like Antoine Walker and Antoine Jamison, or Steve Nash and Van Exel but since he stock piles talent he can trade another day. No talent, no trades.

    BTW I think the Chronicle article says much the same thing about the abysmal overall talent level. The question is to how to get out of this bind with no trade assets, no cap room and probably no lottery picks.
     
    #15 glynch, Dec 12, 2004
(You must log in or sign up to post here.)

Share This Page