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Feigen: Jabari talking about playing Center

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by heypartner, Mar 14, 2023.

  1. VooDooPope

    VooDooPope Love > Hate
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    NO ONE on this team has been good defensively. Anything else is pure projection and looking through Rockets Red glasses to see what you want to see.

    https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defense?dir=A&sort=DEF_RATING

    Jabari sits at 497 out of 515 in Defensive Ranking @ 119.6
    J Green 502 @ 119.8
    Sengun 505 @ 120.2

    Can they all improve yes and they better if the Rockets ever want to be any good at all. Part of this is coaching but saying Jabari has been good defensively is not accurate and I've watched every single game.
     
  2. Bobbythegreat

    Bobbythegreat Member
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    His defense has been mediocre....but that's to be expected from a rookie who attempts to do more than he's currently capable of. My main concern with Jabari was how bad he was shooting this season. There's no excuse for good shooters missing so many open shots. If he keeps hitting like he has the last few games, that'll be closer to what I was expecting from him all season....maybe a bit better than I was expecting.
     
  3. bmelo

    bmelo Member

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    Now that he had 3 good games he's the head honcho now
     
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  4. OremLK

    OremLK Member

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    I can definitely see the thought of playing Sengun as more of a high-tier bench player rather than a flawed but interesting starter. A good coach (which Silas is not) could give him more minutes in situations and matchups when his defense is not as important to take advantage of his offensive skills, and play him less when he's too much of a liability on that end.

    Sengun almost feels like a player out of time. His game would've been amazing a few decades ago, before the NBA got so incredibly athletic. These days when your prototypical star is an insane athlete who can handle the ball and drive to the basket, it's harder to get away with having a big man who can't switch and stay with cutters.

    "Old man ball" indeed.
     
  5. Mathloom

    Mathloom Shameless Optimist
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    You are TOTALLY misusing these stats. The only purpose of these stats is to compare players who play together.

    The top 5 people in the league rankings are players we've never heard of. Jaren Jackson Jr is only the 43rd best defender in the NBA? Jeremy Sochan 2 points away from Jabari is a bad defender too then so we shouldn't expect him to be a good defender in the future? Garrison Matthews was the best defender this season and Nix the 4th best defender on the Rockets and Tate 12th? lol I can go on for days. This list is whacky and everyone should have a click and look at it because it's a common misunderstanding.

    This list is not intended to answer the question of "who is the best defender". Stop spreading myths about Jabari being a bad defender. These stats are telling you how he compares in specific to teammates who share a lot of time together on the floor. It is not a conclusive stat, you have to combine it with several other things and the eye test to draw the conclusion.
     
  6. VooDooPope

    VooDooPope Love > Hate
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    You can just disregard any stats you don't like. That doesn't make them irrelevant or misused. Defense is hard thing to quantify with Stats but...

    The eye test and other factors (INCLUDING STATS) show that NO ONE on this team has been good defensively.

    You asked me to show you league rankings and I did. Sorry you didn't like them and they didn't support your "Jabari is a great defender" narrative.
     
    dmoneybangbang likes this.
  7. peleincubus

    peleincubus Member

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    He could be the Turkish Ginobli. Win 4 championships being the main guy on the bench.

    This is partly because of the modern fit on team in the nba. Also a result of the sheer bursting at the seems talent on the Rockets…!
     
  8. VooDooPope

    VooDooPope Love > Hate
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    And here it is sorted by D Win Share. Helps your boy Jabari a little but still doesn't put him in the top half of the league.

    https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defense

    Tari Eason has been the Rockets best Defensive player this year and he barely cracks the top 50%.

    A lot of this is coaching and scheme but the Jabari is a great defender mantra is a myth.

    I want them all to improve on D and O. I'm tired of watching the Rockets lose.
     
    dmoneybangbang likes this.
  9. eurobasket23

    eurobasket23 Member

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    we are now a dangerous team with 2 head hanchos

    [​IMG]
     
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  10. dawesome

    dawesome Member

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    I see what you see. Not wrong. But Victor already said he doesn't want to play C. It's a given. So..

    C. Jabari
    PF. Sengun
    SF. Victor
    SG. Green
    PG. Harden

    Fixed...
     
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  11. Mathloom

    Mathloom Shameless Optimist
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    Are we just going to ignore that the first stat you posted was whack? Or do you need me to do the same with DWS to make the point? You are misusing these stats and it's no wonder you've been saying Jabari is a bad defender.

    Defensive win shares is NOT going to tell you who the best defender in the NBA is. It will tell you who is currently able - with their own and their team's resources - to have a good defensive season.

    Jabari is a good defender right now and all indications are that he will be a great defender. If you consider his age, experience, teammates, defensive execution - he is far exceeding expectations. He should rank as one of the worst defenders on the Rockets roster across all metrics. He's 19, that's how it goes for 19 year olds on bad defensive teams. You want to worry and moan for the 1-2 years it will take for Jabari to develop into an excellent defender that's your life, but when it happens make sure to take note of how you were not able to see the indications in the stats and on the court.
     
  12. VooDooPope

    VooDooPope Love > Hate
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    I'm saying he's been a mediocre defender at best from watching the games AND any stats you bring up will show the same. YOU show me defensive rankings that show he's been a good defender.

    Sorry you're too invested in your narrative to have it destroyed by ANY and ALL stats.

    I'm not going anywhere. I'll bet you $100 for the tip jar that Jabari doesn't win the DPOY in the next 10 years which if he's been such a good defender this year and headed for a great defender shouldn't be a stretch.
     
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  13. hlmbasketball

    hlmbasketball Member
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    I'm never going to put a limit on anyone. For him to get this far at the age of 20yrs old, that's an accomplishment.

    The only thing I'm saying is that, similar to Jokic, I don't see him getting faster. They have similar body types.

    Jokic lost weight and got in better condition but he's still slow by NBA standards. The thing that help Jokic on the defensive end is his length.

    I really dont think Sengun is heavy, he's just not lite on his feet, which is one of the reasons why he constantly falls down. However, like I said, I think he does have a roll in the NBA. The question is where and who with.
     
  14. Mathloom

    Mathloom Shameless Optimist
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    There are no stats that are going to show an average defender looking average on a terrible defensive team. Doesn't happen. The people who use the stats all understand the strengths and weaknesses of each, they understand what's likely to be highlighted and low-lighted so to speak. If Jabari is capable of playing average NBA defense on an average NBA team, it would NOT show up in these stats that way. You can scroll through years of these stats and see how flawed the rankings are. They're not perfect for league-wide rankings.

    Your bet is too far in the future. Let's think of something sooner. You're only willing to bet $100 on a 10 year bet that he would win the DPOY award - that itself is a testament to Jabari's potential. We're talking about a 19 year old. You're really not understanding the context of what's going on in Jabari's career. His height, his wingspan, his switchability, his effort >> these things are the foundation of a defense that only gets better with experience. I can't believe you can't see he's going to be a great defender.
     
  15. daywalker02

    daywalker02 Member

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    Unfortunately Tari would never fulfill his offensive potential stuck behind Jabari.

    He could leave for a greater role.

    The D is good in spurts though.
     
  16. Mathloom

    Mathloom Shameless Optimist
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    I really don't see the same body type at all, so we'll have to disagree there.
     
  17. VooDooPope

    VooDooPope Love > Hate
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    He hasn’t even been the best defender on THIS team. That distinction goes to Tari Eason.

    I think Smith has the tools to be a good or maybe even great defender, but your narrative that he’s been good/great THIS year is not true. I would say he’s been mediocre with a few flashes of his potential.

    For the most part (until the last 3 games) he’s been Mr. Invisible this season. Rockets were often better when he was off the court. Once again… coaching, scheme and experience will help. He has the tools. We’ll see if he lives up to his potential.
     
  18. RudyTBag

    RudyTBag Contributing Member
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    Call me crazy, I like Jabari and Sengun together.

    Jabari playing like this changes everything. The guy Sengun was forced to play with this year was probably tanking the Rockets more than anyone. Feels like that might be over. (Crosses fingers…)

    Also, don’t forget that every opposing team’s gameplan is centered around Alperen. No one gives a **** about Jabari because he has been so miraculously bad. Those game plans will start to change. Should* make it easier for everyone.
     
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  19. Hemingway

    Hemingway Member

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    All we heard last off-season that Jabari and Tari would solve the Sengun issue, because they were long (which we lacked) and great defensive players. What wasn’t factored in is coaching and experience. Both Tari and Bari have shown flashes of excellent defense, but also flashes of being lost on defense. Sengun does not have the lateral speed to be anything more than average on the defensive side of the ball, but at 20 years old he can certainly use his effort and excellent bbiq to improve. If we don’t get Wembi our ideal lineup should be something like this:

    Harden/KPJ/TyTy
    Green/KPJ/JC
    Tari/Miller/Tate or KJM
    Jabari/Tari/Miller/Garuba
    Sengun/Jabari/Garuba

    We could also trade the No. 3 pick and most if not all the Nets picks plus salary filler (KPJ, KJM, Tate) for Bridges. Then you have:

    Harden/Tyty or vet mid level
    Green/Bridges/JC
    Bridges/Tari/Jabari
    Jabari/Tari/Garuba
    Sengun/Jabari/Garuba

    Or

    Harden/TyTy over vet mid level
    Green/Bridges/JC
    Bridges/Tari/Garuba
    Tari/Jabari/Garuba
    Jabari/Sengun

    In all these scenarios our defense should improve by more minutes and experience for Bari/Tari. If we were to pull off Harden and Bridges we are in contention for a playoff seed not the play-in.
     
  20. Mathloom

    Mathloom Shameless Optimist
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    Totally disagree of course because the foundation on which you're making these assessments is flawed. Tari has been a great defender this season too that's irrelevant. You're now throwing in all sorts of random things about his offense now too so I think it's clear this discussion is going nowhere. Thanks for the chat.
     

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