1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

Federal court strikes down NC Voter ID

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Amiga, Jul 29, 2016.

  1. Dubious

    Dubious Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2001
    Messages:
    18,317
    Likes Received:
    5,089
    but not just ID...background checks and waiting periods

    Deal?

    (democracy in action)
     
  2. CometsWin

    CometsWin Breaker Breaker One Nine

    Joined:
    May 15, 2000
    Messages:
    28,028
    Likes Received:
    13,046
    Anyone can buy a gun without ID from another person. You only need ID to buy a gun from a FFL, a federal firearms licensee. Another ID red herring.
     
  3. Amiga

    Amiga 10 years ago...
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2008
    Messages:
    22,770
    Likes Received:
    19,624
    What is convenient and is too easy a cover for being supportive of wrong ideas is to simply blame both parties for those wrong ideas. What is very strange is blaming the voter ID problem on both parties when they are so far apart. One party is pushing for discriminatory laws and the other is fighting to correct that.

    It's has not been a waste at all. Evidence: it already have resulted in reversal of these laws. Judges have consistently ruled these laws as discriminatory based on fact presented.
     
  4. Bobbythegreat

    Bobbythegreat Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2013
    Messages:
    64,813
    Likes Received:
    27,805
    I've never been against any of that, so yeah.
     
  5. Space Ghost

    Space Ghost Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 1999
    Messages:
    15,856
    Likes Received:
    6,846
    I have clearly stated I don't care one way or the other. What I am blaming both parties for is distracting from the bigger picture. Its the oldest trick in the book and you're falling hook, line and sinker. Finding a judge to support your cause is not an accomplishment.

    So I ask you again, do you think felons should be restricted from voting?
    Find me one actual disenfranchised 'voterID' victim and ill find you 100 more felons who can't vote.
     
  6. CometsWin

    CometsWin Breaker Breaker One Nine

    Joined:
    May 15, 2000
    Messages:
    28,028
    Likes Received:
    13,046
    How can you blame both parties for having opposing positions? Felons shouldn't lose their right to vote and minorities shouldn't be targeted with voter ID laws. Next...
     
    #86 CometsWin, Jul 30, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2016
  7. GladiatoRowdy

    GladiatoRowdy Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2002
    Messages:
    16,596
    Likes Received:
    494
    Nobody that you would care about, for sure.

    My personal experience shows that you don't know what the f*** you're talking about here.

    According to the facts examined as part of this case, this part isn't true at all.

    One of five elderly people don't have ID, are all of them "rednecks?"

    If it is their choice not to vote, that is their choice. However, the GOP tried to make that decision for millions of legitimate voters who deserve to make that choice for themselves.

    Except it isn't "rednecks in the [Styx]" that disproportionately lack ID, according to the facts examined in these cases.

    Tell a lie. Tell it often. Repeat it as much as possible.

    Doesn't make it true, but it will make sure that lots of idiots believe it.

    Bullsh!t. We have voter registration, we mail the registration cards to the person's address, and we have them sign when they vote. This system is trackable and the research done using this system shows that voter fraud is such a minuscule problem that it isn't worth worrying about and couldn't possibly have an actual substantive effect on elections.

    People steal identities for monetary gain. There is no evidence that they do so to vote.
     
  8. GladiatoRowdy

    GladiatoRowdy Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2002
    Messages:
    16,596
    Likes Received:
    494
    Places with same day registration have higher turnout numbers, so yes, registration is, by definition, an impediment.

    Who is to say they have never gone through the process or lack an SS card? If they have lost those documents, reacquiring them could be difficult and expensive, a situation I have experienced personally.

    Yes, we do. We have studied the issue extensively, including millions of dollars spent by the Bush administration, a group of people highly motivated to find problems so that they could justify these laws. They found nothing. They found that you are more likely to be struck by lightning than to actually find a case of in-person voter fraud.

    Because we can compare those registrations to other records. In fact, as observed above, we have done so, and found substantively zero problems with noncitizens registering or voting.

    Yes, it is entirely reasonable to say that disenfranchising millions on the mere suspicion that tens might vote illegally is the wrong policy.

    It isn't free and it isn't easy, as my personal experience has shown.

    No, it isn't, I lived without valid ID for about 3 years, even got on a plane in a post-9/11 world.

    Your inability to understand the arguments I have made on this subject show that you're either willfully ignorant or so biased that you shouldn't be taken seriously.

    Go ahead, bet money. You might want to allocate a tipjar bet into your budget before doing so.

    I'm not making that argument, nice straw man, though.

    Yes, it has worked well.

    You can see what the studies showed, feel free to look into the processes they used which show that you're more likely to be struck by lightning than to find a case of in-person voter fraud.

    Where do you have to register 30 days or more in advance to write a check?

    Have you considered WHY the GOP decided to pass these laws? It is because they intended to discriminate, as the court found.

    That's a completely asinine attempt at analogy.

    No it makes absolutely no sense to disenfranchise millions of people in order to potentially keep tens of people from voting illegally.
     
  9. GladiatoRowdy

    GladiatoRowdy Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2002
    Messages:
    16,596
    Likes Received:
    494
    When laws are discriminatory, they should be overturned. It isn't "arbitrary," there is a reason, which is that the law is discriminatory.

    Agree, we should use the shortest splitline method to draw districts (there's a good YouTube video on this).

    This could easily be done, could be administered through post offices, and could include a picture on the registration card to allay your ID concerns. However, the GOP doesn't want this to be part of their laws because then they wouldn't disenfranchise Democrats.

    Agreed, all citizens should be able to vote.

    No freaking kidding, it is beyond disgusting that the Democrats and Republicans took over the debates from the League of Women Voters.

    I don't know about "sham," but would be willing to discuss this topic. Not sure what you think would be a better process.

    Ultimately, the Democrats and Republicans are private organizations and can set their own rules for who they nominate.

    Not sure what you mean by this.

    Huge problem.

    Because it disenfranchises millions of people, a large percentage of which are Democrats.
     
  10. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2007
    Messages:
    55,828
    Likes Received:
    44,370
    Living in a state with some of the most liberal (emphasis on small 'l') voter laws and consistently among the highest voter turnouts let me shed some perspective on this. In MN an ID is not required to vote and a constitutional amendment requiring that was defeated in 2012. That doesn't mean that just anyone can vote anywhere. The registration process still requires proof of residency through means such as utility bills. Further at polling places there are partisan election judges who can also challenge potential voters who they think they are voting fraudulently. My partner has been one for many elections for the GOP.

    The chances of voter fraud of the type that an ID would stop are very minuscule when there are other checks in place.
     
  11. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2007
    Messages:
    37,815
    Likes Received:
    19,009
    Because the courts are here to figure out what is a bigger problem, but to enforce the constitution and the law. Federal law trumps State law. So when a state creates a law that doesn't align with Federal law, the court is bound to overrule it.

    Voter ID laws, because of their disproportionate impact on minorities, violates the Federal Voting Rights Act. You may think it is arbitrary to enforce the constitution, but many people don't.

    The courts can't really do anything about the electoral process unless it violates Federal law. And since the SC allowed unlimited money because of the Citizens United decision, it can't take money out of politics.

    You must understand that the courts have a very specific role and can not go beyond that role.
     
  12. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2007
    Messages:
    55,828
    Likes Received:
    44,370
    I agree with you on most of those but voter ID laws do little to address them and as been shown do more damage through vote suppression than what they claim to solve.
     
  13. Bobbythegreat

    Bobbythegreat Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2013
    Messages:
    64,813
    Likes Received:
    27,805
    Exactly. I said as much earlier, I don't care about hicks in the sticks who refuse to get "gubment eye dee", I honestly hope they don't vote.


    That's fair, I sometimes do overestimate the competence of my audience. Perhaps it was hard for you but I've known a lot of homeless people that managed just fine. Perhaps you don't have the advantages that the homeless have, I shouldn't have assumed you would.
     
  14. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2007
    Messages:
    37,815
    Likes Received:
    19,009
    I mean this rational argument is almost irrelevant to these guys.

    Everyone knows that the real intent is to win elections by making it harder for Democratic voters. The whole fraud thing is a red herring
     
  15. Aceshigh7

    Aceshigh7 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2003
    Messages:
    3,902
    Likes Received:
    258
    Blacks and hispanics can go to the DMV and acquire an ID just as easily as whites and asians can. It doesn't get any free and easier than that.

    Are we really to believe that blacks and hispanics are so helpless that they can't find a DMV and fill out an application form for an ID?

    This entire premise is utterly ridiculous.
     
  16. Liberon

    Liberon Rookie

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2009
    Messages:
    8,838
    Likes Received:
    842
    I want a giant soft pretzel now... I shouldn't but I crave one...
     
  17. Space Ghost

    Space Ghost Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 1999
    Messages:
    15,856
    Likes Received:
    6,846
    Its irrational to believe that we should focus more of our energy on voter ID laws than other groups who are truly disenfranchised. You run off and visit your favorite liberal sites, read whatever headline is on the front page and believe that it is the good cause to fight for. You should start thinking for yourself for a change.

    This topic is a prime example. You really believe VoterID laws are some significant problem, but you, yourself, couldn't go out and find one person who is disenfranchised by voterID. And I dont mean someone who is too lazy to get their ID renewed (which is the vast majority of people with this excuse)

    Here is something that disenfranchises EVERYONE. Long lines to vote. Why are you not fighting this good fight? Is it because its not on the front page of your liberal "think for me' site?
     
  18. Space Ghost

    Space Ghost Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 1999
    Messages:
    15,856
    Likes Received:
    6,846
    I fully agree with you on this. The fraud is almost non-existent.

    There is one caveat; Local elections when just a few votes could make a difference (rural areas).


    This is my whole premise on the subject. We have just a couple constitutional amendments that list who we can not discriminate against; Blacks, women, poll tax. States clearly discriminate against criminals.

    Everything else is left for the states to decide, including how their delegates get divided up. RNC and DNC control the vast majority of the voting procedures.

    Showing ID is almost always required (I can't think of one that isn't) in any government transaction.

    The whole voting procedure is a train wreck. There is no continuity. We do not guarantee the right to vote sans discrimination to a couple groups.

    This is a states rights issue. I disagree with VoterID laws, but its still their right, considering governments require ID for all transactions (precedent set) and the people and government allow things like gerrymandering (another precedent set for discrimination/fraud).
     
  19. NewRoxFan

    NewRoxFan Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2002
    Messages:
    55,794
    Likes Received:
    55,857
    Wow... the republican/conservative/right wing position, spoken clearly. "Why worry about others... especially others whose constitutional rights are being violated?"
     
  20. Space Ghost

    Space Ghost Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 1999
    Messages:
    15,856
    Likes Received:
    6,846
    Yes, you should start thinking for yourself. We do not have a constitutional right to vote.

    Maybe you should read it?

    And please refrain from referring to me as a Republican. Im not a narrow minded straight ticket voter.
     

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now