I dont want to even hear any disagreements on this the Lakers were getting all the calls last night and it is not fair. Some of the calls are as follow. 1st quater Miller getting hit by Brian Shaw and no foul, Harper bangs right into Mark Jackson which should have an offnesive foul and then taunts jackson by pushing the ball in his chest, That should have an immediate technical foul on Harper, Hugh Evans told mark jackson if he did not retaliate he would called harp for the T. What a lowlife corrupt liar Evans is he was not gonna call nothing if jackson didnt put the ball back in harps chest. Once again Rice was hacking and wacking away at Jalen Rose and not enough fouls were called on that non-defender Rice. If the refs are gonna call Smits for the fouls he commits then they should call the fouls when the Lakers hit him and at the start of the 3rd the Lakers fouled Smits twice and nothing was called! First harper ran right over Smits when Smits stood right there no call what gives! Then Smits goes up for a lay up and Shaq hacks the hell out of him no call what gives! but of course the refs decide to call 2 straight fouls on him right after that and people say the NBA is not fixed well guess again it is. Robert Horry and Glen Rice should have called for technicals's for trying to start trouble with Dale Davis but nothing was called. Then with a few minutes left in the game the Pacers up by 10 Shaq goaltends the shot by Rose and the crooked dirty refs just ignored an obvious 2 points for the Pacers. that play almost cost the Pacers the game and it was not fair. It is just that the NBA has to cheat for the Lakers these whole playoffs I thought the Knicks get a lot of calls but the Lakers get even more! ------------------
That's B.S. man, the Pacer's got more calls than the Lakers in that game. ------------------ stop posting my damn signature
The Pacers got more than their share of calls . Im saying if the Pacers win Tuesday this thing could get interesting ------------------ Proud owner of 271 different Hakeem Olajuwon Basketball cards
I sure wouldn't give tham as asterick. It is a completely different scenario to be missing a good player who defensively is a liability than to choke away a 15 point 4th quarter lead in a game 7. If the Fakers choke away that lead in a game 7 or if the Pacers hammer a Laker in the closing seconds of a Game 7 and get away with it, then asterick. Injuries are part of the game. They are somewhat commonplace. The ratio of sprained ankles to blown 15 point 4th quarter Game 7 leads is probably about 100000 to 1. ------------------ Cheaters never win. Unless you play for LA that is.
"defensively is a liability"!? I'm sorry . . . I thought we were talking about Kobe. He probably has become one of the best defensive 2-guards in the league and you call him a "liability"? If he's a "liability", then Cuttino is a catastrophe! ------------------
I knew with Kobe getting All-Defensive team that was exactly what you would say. But anyway, did you even watch a second of the Portland series? The Blazers went right at Kobe, attacked him, and did it well. Scottie put him in the post and got him in foul trouble. Remember Pip's two jump hooks at the end of game 3 to tie the game? Right in Kobe's face. Also in game 3, when Kobe had 2 fouls in the first half, Stacey Augmon scored about 8 or 10 points in a row on Kobe in the post. STACEY AUGMON!! The guy we cut!! Bonzi Wells and the other members of the team who regularly went at Kobe had great success as well. Portland proved that you have to attack Kobe, and that they did. You can bait him into silly fouls, and then attack him all night, especially since he isn't a physical player. That's what Portland did, and it worked. Kobe may have defensive TALENT, but he has a lot to learn before he can put that to use in the right way. ------------------ Cheaters never win. Unless you play for LA that is.
Well, let's see . . . If you want to use the Portland series as an indicator of defensive talent, then Kobe averaged 1.57 spg, 2.14 bpg, and 5.9 rpg from the 2-guard position. Meanwhile, Pippen shot .425 (down from his regular season .451) for the series, Smith shot .467 (about par for his regular season averages), Wells shot .404 (down from .492), and Augmon shot .400 (down from .474). With the exception of Smith (an arguably all-star offensive player), everybody Kobe matched up with dropped significantly in shooting percentage. Seems like he did fine defensively to me. As for Augmon being "the guy we cut", I still say that was a really bone-headed roster move on the Rockets part. ------------------
You cannot tell the story of a player by stats. Not even close. You think Kobe had anything to do with shots Wells, Pippen, Augmon, and others when they were wide open or guarded by someone other than him? Those stats are completely irrelevant because they do not show the players' numbers vs. Kobe. Who cares how they do against everyone else? We're talking about Kobe here, and since Kobe split time over all of those guys, it's safe to say that ALL of those guys played at least 3/5 of the time not being guarded by Kobe, some more, some less. So roughly at least 60% of those numbers came against someone else. Because those stats don't show the numbers each had individually on Kobe, then they are completely irrelevant. For example, what if Rick Fox was guarding Bonzi Wells and Wells shot 0-10. Does that make Kobe a great defender? No. Also, like I said, stats do not tell the story. For practically the whole series, Portland attacked Kobe, put him in the post, got him into foul trouble, etc. He averaged 5 fouls a game. Some defender. They baited him into ticky tack fouls and he went for it. Like I said, he has talent, but a lot to learn. ------------------ Cheaters never win. Unless you play for LA that is. [This message has been edited by The Cat (edited June 12, 2000).]
Jeez Cat; I had really hoped your bitterness would have worn off by now. ------------------ stop posting my damn signature
Cat, if we're going to have to listen to all this bitter ranting, can you at least owe up to it when you make one minor error? I don't like Kobe's hype. I don't care if he wasn't selected for 1st, 2nd or 3rd all-defensive team. I watch games. And Kobe is nothing less than an excellent defender. Just answer this question: Is Kobe a "defensive liability?"
Kobe is a talented defender- I will give you that. But he has not learned how to use his talent correctly. Like I said, almost everyone in the Portland series attacked him and either scored or drew fouls. Kobe averaged 5 fouls a game. Pippen, Wells, Augmon, and Smith all went at him in the post and did very well. Kobe may have TALENT, but if you attack him with the right personnel, he will make poor decisions that lead to foul trouble. Then, when he is in foul trouble, he has proved to be defenseless. Just attack him in the post and you can score because Phil can't afford to sit him down and Kobe can't afford to pick up an extra foul. In that sense, he is a liability. I think as time goes by Kobe will grow out of being baited into calls, and as he matures I think he WILL be a great defensive player. But as of now, no. He has a lot of learning to do. ------------------ Cheaters never win. Unless you play for LA that is. [This message has been edited by The Cat (edited June 12, 2000).]
LAKERS GET EVERY CALL IN GM 3 IS THE TOPIC not Kobe 's defense, Pole are there any facts in your statement that the Pacers got there fair share of calls cause I listed my facts on the 1st post if you watched the game you will remember. ------------------
I didn't watch much of the game, but I swear, everytime I tuned in I heard Costas say something to this effect: "While the Pacers may win this game, it's still going to be virtually impossible for them to win the series." Thanks Bob, since you pretty much know the outcome already, I guess I won't tune in for game 4. ------------------ Get your proper swirve on...visit www.swirve.com (coming in mid-June, for now visit www.eesite.com)
The Cat, Okay, you claim that stats don't tell the whole story and then you keep ranting about how Kobe averaged 5 fouls/game. In essence, you condemn using stats and then use stats in your counterargument Well, since I like looking at all the pretty numbers , I'll throw in another stat that you failed to include in context of his 5 PF/game. He played 43.1 mpg in that series. In other words, his "foul trouble" only kept him out of 4.9 mpg (of course, coincidentally he was playing 4.9 mpg more than his season average of 38.2 mpg). You look at the 5 fouls/game and label him as a defensively talented liability . . . can you say oxymoron? I knew you could I look at his 5 fouls per game and I see someone playing aggressive defense (especially in conjunction with the meaningless stats of "1.57 spg, 2.14 bpg, and 5.9 rpg from the 2-guard position" I gave you in one of my earlier posts in this thread. Let go of your unreasonable hate of all things Lakers. Find your center, grasshopper. When you can admit that the Lakers don't suck, you will be ready to leave the temple ------------------
LP- Simply we have different ways of looking at things. First, Kobe may have played that many minutes, but many were minutes in foul trouble that Jackass left him on the floor. But realistically, when I look at 5 fouls a game, I see a young guy who veterans baited into doing some stupid fouls. Not someone playing aggressive defense. But that's your opinion, and I respect it. I just don't agree. Also, I don't think stats tell the whole story. But I knew if I didn't include something, you would snap back something to the effect of "back up your argument." So I did it just so you wouldn't get mad. And finally, yes I see him as a defensive talent and a liability. He has the talent to become a top-notch defender in this league. But he has to mature as a player. He still was baited all series long into ticky-tack fouls that got him into foul trouble and then to where he couldn't defend. I just fail to see how a player that got attacked and scored on all series by the other team can be at this point a top-notch defender. I just don't see it. ------------------ Cheaters never win. Unless you play for LA that is.
Awww listen to you guys argue!! Pacers won so were happy! Kobe is out, hopefully the remainder of the games ... speakin of, if he is and the Pacers win it all ... will they too get an astrick? ------------------
The Cat, I can understand if you disagree with me that Kobe is a great defender, but you cannot really support the argument that he is a "liability" (especially, not on the basis of one series). As I said, offensively Steve Smith is an all-star caliber player, so you don't expect him to get shut down. Pippen is supposedly an all-star also. Claiming that these guys scored on Kobe, because he is a "liabilty" is equivalent to saying Gary Payton is a defensive liabilty, because he can't contain John Stockton in a 7-game series. The argument just doesn't hold water. And claiming that being subject to foul trouble makes you a defensive liabilty would make players like Marcus Camby lousy defenders too. Of course, we can agree to disagree on this one. Just hope Indiana can be the first team to sweep their 3-game home stand. ------------------
The Cat, I don't mean Kobe is a total liability- I shouldn't have said that. In some cases, I believe he is though. Now, you're beginning to move in the right direction. I'll buy the "in some cases" bit, but would like to point out that "in some cases" almost every player in the league is a potential liability. They're called mismatches. These can take the forms of heighth disadvantages, quickness, disadvantages, and yes, even the inability to handle physical play. I don't believe that Kobe's problems with physical players are as extreme as you make them out to be, but I will admit that it isn't the strong point of his defense. Also, you keep bringing up Augmon, so I looked up his performance in this series. In one game, he shot 4-8 field goals in 13 minutes for 8 points. This is respectable, but hardly dominating. In the only 2 other games he played in the series, he was 0-1 in each. Again, he was hardly schooling anyone. Also, let's not forget that Augmon was a decent offensive player in his early years with Atlanta. The only reason he hasn't played much is cause Portland is such a deep team (and bad coaching by Dunleavy also ). ------------------
Augmon was only offensively involved in one quarter of the series. Dunleavy put him in after being on the bench the whole series, and he attacked Kobe in the post. I think those 8 points were right in a row. Kobe is more of a liability than many players in the NBA though with players that can bait him and post him up. I hadn't seen a team attack a player like Portland did Kobe in a while. ------------------ Cheaters never win. Unless you play for LA that is.
