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espn- Wade, Bosh sour at LeBron being frontrunner

Discussion in 'NBA Dish' started by downbytheriver, Oct 11, 2014.

  1. WinkFan

    WinkFan Contributing Member

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    You could maybe argue that Pippen maybe shouldn't be a HOF player. What you can't argue is that he is 10 times better than anyone Lebron played with in Cleveland.
     
  2. gmoney411

    gmoney411 Member

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    If a girl marries a guy and he ends up getting rich she isn't a gold digger. If a girl marries a guy because he is rich she is a gold digger.
     
  3. roslolian

    roslolian Member

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    Why is this a distinction when the result is the same?

    "So someone gave me an ice cream and I ate it"

    "So I bought an ice cream and I ate it"

    You think Lebron would've left Cleveland if they drafted Pippen and traded for Rodman? :rolleyes: Maybe if MJ or Jabbar won multiple rings with scrubs you'd have a point, but those guys played with HOF players when they won a ring.

    Btw Kerr is a ****ing superstar compared to Larry Hughes, (retiring) Big Z and Sideshow Bob.
     
  4. roslolian

    roslolian Member

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    :confused: That's not really a fair comparison, the gold-digger is after money while the other girl is after love. In this case MJ and Lebron are after the same thing (rings), the difference is MJ can sit on his ass because Chicago's FO is amazing while Lebron had to go find a new team because Cleveland's FO is trash and surrounded him with guys like Larry Hughes, old Ben Wallace and broken down Shaq.

    A more apt comparison is someone who inherited a ton of money (Sultan of Brunei) vs someone who worked hard for his money (Bill Gates). Other "old rich" people might discriminate against Bill Gates for not being part of royalty or having noble blood when the reality is Gates is as much of a millionaire as the Sultan and his kids.
     
  5. Jontro

    Jontro Member

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    I'm pretty sure it was Varejao who did that. He's their true superstar.
     
  6. downbytheriver

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    I could have carried my grandma to the finals in that Eastern Conference.

    I really don't like debating those kinds of things between different era's, but a player's character and grit are things that transcend era's. Plenty of casual fans forget KAJ was vilified because he was in LA and lived the LA lifestyle, but on the court he really imposed his will in the way a prime Russell did. Of course, both were good at different facets of the game, but it's not a skill issue we're debating here.
     
  7. downbytheriver

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    LOLLL

    You're taking things out of context---both Wade and Bosh see it exactly like it is.

    Miami not looking so young and hot anymore, lebrons keeping his eyes open as to where he can go next. is he the best player in the nba? yes. but as soon as cleveland landed the #1 pick in a draft that's the strongest since the Lebron, Wade Melo draft... we all knew what stock was trending up and where he was going.

    CEO of netscape hits a roadblock with his company trending down with him at the top for 5 years, jumps to google on their way up. The way he hops around to the best situation shows his inability to impose his will. other greats have too much pride in who they are. 1 move ok... but do it twice, and the 2nd time being on a 2 year contract implying you'll do it again.. it's a young corporate mentality, i get it. But this dude is at the top of his game and has more talent than anyone in the league. i can see why other players are disrespecting him now.

    in short-- everything is relative.
     
  8. Easy

    Easy Boban Only Fan
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    not 1, not 2, not 3 ...
     
    1 person likes this.
  9. gmoney411

    gmoney411 Member

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    I realize it's not a fair comparison. But your comparison isn't really an apt one. LeBron is Bill Gates if he stays with the Cavs. Instead he abandoned his company to run Microsoft for a huge paycheck.
     
  10. Icehouse

    Icehouse Contributing Member

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    Because using your free agency to actually make a smart decision is cowardly. You are only for making dumb decisions and trying to win multiple titles without supporting talent, like no one has done.
     
  11. Icehouse

    Icehouse Contributing Member

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    How are you coming to that conclusion? When has Pippen or anyone associated with the Bulls said that he became who he was because of Jordan? Pippen was a big 6-7 wing with PG skills that could defend and cover multiple positions. He was drafted pretty high, which obviously meant he was a top prospect. Why do people credit Jordan for his athletic gifts or the hard work he put in to improve his game?

    Looking at Pippen's story, he put in a ton of hard work to come from a walk-on at Central Arkansas to the NBA. I'm sure he would have been a great player no matter where he went because he was an athletic freak that still maintained his PG skills due to a late growth spurt, and apparently a very hard worker (on his game). To make it in this league it takes athletic gifts and the mindset/love to keep working on your game to improve. Pippen had these with or without Jordan. Sure, he wouldn't be as popular if he weren't on a 6-time champion, playing alongside megastar Jordan. But I laugh at anyone insinuating that he wouldn't still be a great basketball player elsewhere.
     
    #51 Icehouse, Oct 14, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2014
  12. Rocket River

    Rocket River Member

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    Pos. Starter Bench Reserve Inactive
    C Arvydas Sabonis Jermaine O'Neal Joe Kleine
    PF Rasheed Wallace Brian Grant Antonio Harvey
    SF Scottie Pippen Detlef Schrempf Stacey Augmon
    SG Steve Smith Bonzi Wells
    PG Damon Stoudamire Greg Anthony Gary Grant

    Rocket River
     
  13. johnnytsunami

    johnnytsunami Member

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    Never said Pippen wouldn't still be a good-to-great player, but you're underestimating Jordan's effect on Pippen's career. Do you think Pippen would've developed into one of the greatest perimeter defenders of all time without having to go at it with Jordan everyday in practice? I don't think anyone here is saying Scottie didn't have any talent, but there's plenty of players out there who never lived up to their potential. There's no doubt Pippen got placed into a great situation with the Bulls and MJ. Hell, Scottie himself gives a lot of credit to MJ for how his career turned out.
     
  14. roslolian

    roslolian Member

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    How is Bill Gates "staying on the Cavs?" First of all the huge paycheck is BS, he took a discount to go to Miami so wtf are you talking about?

    Secondly what you're doing is judging Lebron on a standard MJ or Jabbar never had to endure, did MJ or Jabbar win multiple rings without another HOF player? No? Then what is this BS story about "staying", well duh who doesn't want to stay on their home team if they had a powerhouse? Oh wait, Jabbar was drafted in Milwaukee but won all his rings in LA, so how's that different from Lebron being drafted in Cleveland but winning his rings in Miami?

    Oh yeah, the difference is LA already had the Big O and Magic on the squad while Miami only had Wade and they had to convince Bosh to join. Somehow if the GM trades for talent or drafts it then it's all good but when they're obtained through FA it doesn't count? But wait didn't Shaq win a ring in FA after he signed with the Lakers? This is total BS and everyone here should have better sense, Lebron has 4 MVPs, 2 Finals MVPS and 2 Rings and you accuse that guy of being a coat-tail rider? Really? If a guy with 4 MVPs is a coat-tail rider how did he get an MVP and Finals MVP award and not the dude he's supposedly riding the coat-tails off? LOL maybe you can make the argument he's not better than Jabbar (the true GOAT for me) or MJ but still that's just 2 guys, let's hear the rest of the people downright better than LBJ. KOBE? Lin? LOL!!!
     
  15. Icehouse

    Icehouse Contributing Member

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    How so? When has Pippen ever said Jordan had that big of an impact on his individual career? Where is your support for statements like these?


    Hell yes!! He would still be a big 6-7, very athletic, with the type of speed to stay with PG's wouldn't he? You credit Jordan for that? He still would have become a great defender just like the other guys who had the elite physical tools and the dedication to work on their games, that didn't play with Jordan, did.

    Link?
     
  16. johnnytsunami

    johnnytsunami Member

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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfqznfs24Cc
    Pippen's HOF speech 0:30-1:30.

    Not to mention the stories of practices and one-on-one games between Michael and Scottie were legendary (you don't think going against Jordan everyday would develop your defensive skills at an abnormal, even by NBA standards, rate?). Plenty of players had/have those physical tools, but it takes an extraordinary blend of talent, physical tools, drive, circumstance and development to put it all together. Sure, he could have still been a great defender, but it's a different tier when you're talking about the greatest perimeter defenders in the history of the game (Pippen is in my personal top 2-3 perimeter defenders of all time, which I don't believe he'd still be if he didn't end up on that Bulls team). Plus, those 6 rings they won together are not trivial in determining their legacies. Personally, I think Pippen still could have been a HOFer without MJ, but they were equally important to each other for their respective careers. MJ is arguably the GOAT and Pippen is in the convo for Greatest 50 -- both players have each other to thank for that.
     
  17. Icehouse

    Icehouse Contributing Member

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    I only listed to the part that you mentioned. Where in that part did he say anything even close to "I became great because of Jordan"? He started off by saying it was good "to see someone who had the same desire, determination, passion and love for the game." I bolded the key word. He didn't attribute those things that HE had to Jordan. He also thanked him for being the best teammate.

    I don't think you can shift credit to someone becoming a great defensive player to "practicing against Jordan", especially when said player is a 6-7 athletic freak with the speed to cover PG's, the length to challenge big forwards, and had the SAME desire, determination, passion and love for the game as one of the greatest to ever do it.

    And how do you attribute any of that to Jordan? Pippen had all of the above and would have no matter where he played.


    Pippen was an all-time great defender because 6-7 athletic wings that are fast enough to keep up with PG's and have insane length are kinda rare. He was able to run an offense because guys that height hitting growth spurts late and still retaining their PG skills are kinda rare. You are focusing on the wrong things. He had everything you would ask for from a physical standpoint, and he obviously worked hard on his game (to go from a walk-on/team manager at a small school to the 5th pick in the draft).

    Winning titles elevates players (see Nique vs Pippen vs Worthy), so I will agree with you there.
     
  18. johnnytsunami

    johnnytsunami Member

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    He qualified that statement by saying how valuable it was to him as a player to see someone with those same attributes. Someone who challenged him everyday in practice, pushing him and driving him to be better. Because Scottie had those same traits, he thrived in that atmosphere (an atmosphere only Jordan and a few other players in history exuded). In that sense, Jordan was vital in Pippen's development.

    If you look at the totality of his words and emotions during the part I mentioned, Pippen's appreciation of MJ is pretty obvious (at one point he mentions how many lives MJ has touched, but "none quite like [Pippen's]"). Again, you aren't reading my words correctly. In no way did I say he "became great because of Jordan". I said he reached the level of greatness he did, in large part due to MJ, both in Jordan's presence on the court and his contribution to Scottie's development. Like I said in my previous post, Scottie is in the convo for Greatest 50 because he was able to play with Jordan.

    Circumstance and development would not have been the same if he played anywhere else (note: a bit off topic, but let's not understate the importance of Phil Jackson and the Bulls FO to both of those as well, by saying Pippen could have had all of that no matter where he played).

    Circumstance: He played on a team where he did not have to be "the man" night in and night out, that was MJ's job. He did not have to constantly face double teams and often faced less defensive pressure due to the other teams' focus on Jordan, giving Scottie more room to operate, playmake and shoot. Pippen could focus on becoming more of a point-forward and put forth more effort defensively because of Jordan's presence on that team.

    Development: Touched upon this above. Jordan and Pippen both fed off each other's otherworldly competitiveness and love of the game in order to push themselves to levels that would not have otherwise reached. Doubtful that Pippen would have the same atmosphere elsewhere (save maybe a couple teams at that time).

    While I agree with your description of Pippen (although, I'd add that he was a poor shooter coming into the league, just to give a more complete draft profile), elite athleticism with great speed and height alone does not make you an all-time great defender (TMac, anyone?). It gives you all the necessary tools to do so, but development is just as vital (just to go on with my example, had Grant Hill stayed healthy in Orlando, I think TMac may have ended up with a better career than Kobe -- Hill would not have let TMac coast during practices and play such lackadaisical D).

    Many players have the talent, physical tools and drive to become great players, to become HOFers, but even within the HOF, there are different tiers of greatness. Pippen reached the tier he did thanks to Jordan, and vice versa.

    At least we reached something we agree on.. :)

    Unfortunately though, we are dealing with the hypothetical, so there's no way we can definitively "prove" our points of views.
     
  19. zeeshan2

    zeeshan2 Member

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    <blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>. <a href="https://twitter.com/Scalabrine">@Scalabrine</a> on <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/LeBron?src=hash">#LeBron</a> to <a href="https://twitter.com/jimrome">@jimrome</a> - &quot;Let’s keep it real. I think that all LeBron cares about is his legacy (not Ohio).&quot; More at 10p.</p>&mdash; SHOWTIME SPORTS (@SHOsports) <a href="https://twitter.com/SHOsports/status/522118012170539009">October 14, 2014</a></blockquote>
    <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
     
  20. downbytheriver

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    You are one of the most tedious posters I have ever had the displeasure of trying to read. So much emotion, so much pointless jibber jabber, while not really understanding the context of what you're debating. If the cavs don't win in 2 years and lebron jumps to whatever team is looking iike a dynasty, he'll just be a smart businessman. But respect in the NBA don't work like that. LOF's like yourself won't get it-- you've never played the game or been taken seriously by people who have. His marketing team is spinning numbers on casual fans.
     

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