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Elite Rebounding & Paint Protection vs. Stretch4/Spreading the Court

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by Rox>Mavs, Oct 31, 2013.

  1. meh

    meh Contributing Member

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    Last year, the Rockets were at their best with a stretch 4. Both in the regular season and in the playoffs. This has been proven to be successful. They lose some defense for certain, but the offense was incredible. It's still unclear whether or not twin towers would make up the loss of firepower with extra defense and/or offensive-rebounding. I don't know. The Rockets don't know. Which is why they're trying it out.

    My guess is that they will force the Asik/Howard combo for some games. Have enough of a sample size to make a clear judgement. And from then on, they'll switch lineups based on matchups.

    Also, while most people look at starters, IMO the key impact here is in crunch time. If the Rockets are leading by 8 with 5 minutes to go, I can see them playing Asik/Howard in order to slow the game down and lower the odds of opposing comeback. Whereas if the Rockets are down by 8 with 5 minutes to go, then they should go small and try to bomb their way back into the game.
     
  2. TJ VS TR

    TJ VS TR Member

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    Defense wins championship, sure. But it's usually because they already have some kind of big three offensively.

    OP: If one can get a Dirk or Love, stretch four is better than paint protection, if one gets Bonner or Bargs paint protection is better.
     
  3. matthewsq

    matthewsq Member

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    Let's regroup and think for a second the pros and cons of both.
    Pro's of Stretch 4:
    -Spacing
    -More Scoring options (long 2 but not a 3)
    - ? That's it
    Con's of Stretch 4 (obtained by trading Asik)
    -We have a lot of shooters and a lot of people who demand the ball
    -Harden would have majority, then Howard then Parsons, then Garcia Casspi etc
    -No one is better than Asik in defending in the PF position
    -Less Rebounds
    -No more sub center (and we were at the bottom when Asik was resting)
    Now Let's talk about Twin Towers
    Pros
    -Rebounds
    -Guards giving up on driving and losing their option
    -which leads to easier defending for the guards
    -Tight D
    -Monsters at post up (we are the only people playing 2 centers. there PF can't match Asik or Howard)
    -theres more etc.
    Con's
    -Spacing
    -Double team Dwight easier

    Now why do people want a stretch 4? Makes no sense to me. If the problem is spacing, Harden Parsons Casspi already showed they can slash and drive even with Twin Towers.
     
  4. sirbaihu

    sirbaihu Member

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    Amen! Anyone fixated on "Twin Towers" gets distracted by shiny objects.

    Fortunately our point differential is at +13 right now.

    Last year we didn't have Dwight Howard, so it was kinda different. We should be comparing Dwight/Asik vs. Dwight/Anonymous 4, not Dwight/Anonymous 4 vs. Asik/Last Year's 4.

    I don't see how we would get equal value for Asik in a trade. Haven't seen anyone make a convincing case yet either. Come on, guys who want to trade Asik, name names.

    I'm not being negative. I'm saying keeping Asik is a great idea!
     
  5. Vpballa916

    Vpballa916 Contributing Member

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    there is a fundamental problem with playing 2 centers who can't space the floor with a mid range jumper. The paint is clogged, and our perimeter guys will have difficulty maneuvering into the paint. This will affect Harden more than anyone, who operates in the paint and gets to the free throw line more than anyone on our team. So do you play Howard and Asik together for long periods of time, at the expense of Harden's biggest strength? McHale is going to have to figure this one out.
     
  6. Vpballa916

    Vpballa916 Contributing Member

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    Dwight would play PF, not center if Asik were on the floor with him. And the reason people want a stretch 4 is because Dwight had his best years when he played with Rashard Lewis and Ryan Anderson.

    imagine if he had that Orlando team, but with James Harden? that's just deadly and tantalizing to imagine.

    Ryan Anderson would essentially complete that reality.
     
  7. DaDakota

    DaDakota If you want to know, just ask!

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    Just not true, balance wins championships - defense is only half of the equation.

    DD
     
  8. meh

    meh Contributing Member

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    Orlando was successful for years with Dwight as their only all-star caliber player. The Rockets won their 2nd championship because Rudy had the guts to go small. Miami went small full time once they realized that Lebron can make up for the lack of a defensive big. Spurs won multiple championships where they put Duncan as center and surround him with a stretch 4.

    Small ball has proven to work over and over by multiple teams over multiple years. Twin towers? Proven to be successful maybe twice in my memory? Sampson/Dream, and Duncan/Robinson.

    TBH, the true "shiny object" you're referring to is the sexiness of having two centers. Not the tried-and-true stretch 4 in conjunction with a stud center.
     
  9. sirbaihu

    sirbaihu Member

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    You mentioned last year: our defense sucked last year and we didn't get out of the first round.
     
  10. sirbaihu

    sirbaihu Member

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    Everyone wants Ryan Anderson: is that right? Give specifics, please.

    It's easy to say "We should make a trade that will make the team better." Come on now, who? Ryan Anderson? Is that right? I seriously am trying to understand what people are advocating. It's Ryan Anderson? Just saying "Let's get better than we are" is not really saying anything.
     
  11. meh

    meh Contributing Member

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    Are you implying that if the Rockets had Reggie Evans/Nick Collison/Kendrick Perkins type at PF, we'd have done better?
     
  12. sirbaihu

    sirbaihu Member

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    Not at all. I'm saying I like this year's roster much better. I'm saying I want to keep Asik. Who do you want to replace him with? Just share your idea.
     
  13. meh

    meh Contributing Member

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    Wait, how did it turn like this? I thought this thread is about the concept of small vs. big in terms of basketball concept. If you want to know my opinion on Asik, I've started two threads on him over the offseason in my attempt to discuss non-Lin things.

    http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=242719
    http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=245789

    But I maintain my opinion that small ball style, when you have a stud defensive center, has proven to work. While big ball has not. Doesn't mean it won't work. But I'll believe it when I see it.

    FWIW, SVG thinks twin towers will not work. That he tried with Dwight and Gortat and that it failed. Thibs never tried Asik/Noah together either. It's odd that you feel a style that two of the best NBA coaches don't believe in is, somehow in your mind, a safe bet that is certain to work. While another style that teams have won championships and went to finals is in your mind, "distracted by shiny object."

    I'm not that knowledgeable basketball wise, which is why I am eager to use the opinions of those more knowledgeable than me as a guide.
     
  14. sirbaihu

    sirbaihu Member

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    OK, well it doesn't matter what I think anyway. This board is just for our enjoyment. Like it really matters if I want to keep Asik or not :p
     
  15. Hilarious

    Hilarious Member

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    1998-1999 Spurs Championship - Duncan/Robinson
    2002-2003 Spurs Championship - Duncan/Robinson
    2004-2005 Spurs Championship - Duncan/Nesterovic (and only sometimes Horry)
    2006-2007 Spurs Championship - Duncan/Elson or Oberto (they shared the mainload of the starts)
    and recently they field Duncan with Splitter..so i really wonder who this stretch 4 who made the Spurs win their multiple ships is? Horry? He only was used situational just like we use Casspi/Parsons etc.

    And as for Miami, there is only one and only Lebron..not 2 not 3 not..:p:grin:
    Joke aside Dallas is the only Team which won a ship with a legitimate stretch 4
     
  16. HookemHorns1250

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    Twin Towers>Stretch 4. That's my point of view.

    Make a team beat you with jump shots = Success on defense.
     
  17. saleem

    saleem Contributing Member

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    Exactly, but hardly anyone pays heed to this obvious point.
     
  18. Joe Joe

    Joe Joe Go Stros!
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    Lebron is a legitimate stretch 4. Bosh is too. The last 3 championships have been won by teams with a stretch 4. Duncan and Garnett also have very good mid range games that allow them to have most of the benefit of a stretch 4 (I generally consider Duncan a 5) without the general drawbacks of the stretch 4.

    There is definitely a strong benefit in having the floor spaced. There is also a benefit to being able to defend the basket.
     
  19. Hilarious

    Hilarious Member

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    Like i stated Lebron is case of its own, he can't be used as an example imo.
    Hence i stated, that Dalls is a valid example, but imo the only one besides the Lebranomaly.

    As for the spacing, i agree but I tend to think that both, DH and Asik can improve in shooting from at least 14-15 feet. DH showed that he is working on that right side bank shot and Asik did shoot not that bad last season, he just didn't do it often.
     
  20. meh

    meh Contributing Member

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    Did you just mention Rasho "7mpg in the playoffs and only played 15 out of 23 games" Nesterovic as part of a twin towers?

    What else do you believe in? Do you think Hakeem partnered up with Charles Jones and Zan Tabak in our two championship runs?
     

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