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Eliminating the death penalty... to cut the budget!

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Major, Mar 2, 2009.

  1. Major

    Major Member

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    This is an interesting route to getting rid of the death penalty...

    http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/03/02/economy.death.penalty/index.html


    (CNN) -- Brian Sanderholm thinks Justin Thurber deserves to die for raping and killing his 19-year-old daughter.

    "I believe in an eye for an eye. If you do the crime, you need to have justice," he said. "In the end, it's up to the jury, but all that matters is that he can't hurt anyone again."

    But amid a time of economic turmoil some legislators in Kansas and elsewhere say the price of justice is too high. They have introduced legislation to take the death penalty off the books over financial concerns.

    Jodi Sanderholm was last seen alive on January 5, 2007, at dance practice at Cowley College in Arkansas City, Kansas, where she was a student and member of the Cowley College Tigerettes Danceline. Her bruised and battered body was found four days later in a pile of brush, bearing signs of a violent and prolonged death that prosecutors likened to torture.

    A jury sentenced Thurber to death on February 18. A Kansas court will decide whether to uphold the jury's verdict in a hearing scheduled for March 20.

    If Kansas Senate Bill 208 passes, it won't take effect until July 1, so it won't affect Thurber's sentence. But future savings could be substantial.

    "Because of the downturn in the national economy, we are facing one of the largest budget deficits in our history," state Sen. Carolyn McGinn, a Republican, said in an opinion piece posted on TheKansan.com Friday. "What is certain is we are all going to have to look at new and creative ways to fund state and community programs and services."

    The state would save more than $500,000 per case by not seeking the death penalty, McGinn wrote, money that could be used for "prevention programs, community corrections and other programs to decrease future crimes against society."

    Fiscal concerns are just a part of McGinn's argument. She has also cited the disproportionate rate of minorities that are sentenced to death. Kansas reintroduced the death penalty in 1994 but has not executed a condemned inmate since 1965.

    Anti-death-penalty groups say longer jury selection, extra expert witnesses, jury consultants and an extended penalty phase tend to make death penalty trials more costly than non-death-penalty cases. Extra safeguards in place to ensure a fair verdict, including additional investigators and defense attorneys certified to handle death cases, who spend more time researching and litigating the case, also drive up costs. See a chart comparing the costs of two murder trials »

    A 2008 study by the Urban Institute, an economic and social policy research group based in Maryland, found that an average capital murder trial in the state resulting in a death sentence costs about $3 million, or $1.9 million more than a case where the death penalty is not sought.

    A similar 2008 study by the ACLU in Northern California found that a death- penalty trial costs about $1.1 million more than a non-death-penalty trial in California.


    McGinn's bill faces opposition from various sides, including victims' rights groups and the state's top prosecutor, who says there are no hard numbers related to the cost of the death penalty.

    New Mexico, which also has a bill before the Legislature to abolish the death penalty, has already seen a case where costs dictated the outcome.

    Last year, the New Mexico attorney general's office agreed to drop the death penalty for two inmates involved in the stabbing death of a guard, Ralph Garcia, during a 1999 riot at the Guadalupe County Correctional Facility.

    The change came after the state Legislature failed to provide additional funding for defense attorneys contracted to handle the case by the public defender's office.

    In court documents filed at the time, Attorney General Gary King said his office could not "in good faith under these circumstances" pursue the death penalty against Robert Young and Reis Lopez.

    Even Garcia's wife lent her voice to the case, writing a letter to then-Assistant Attorney General Michael Fox explaining why she did not support the death penalty.

    "I would rather see the death penalty be abolished and reparation be made to the victims, wives or husbands and to their children. I know how hard it is to go look for a job when my job was staying home and taking care of the home and kids and my husband was the breadwinner," Rachel Garcia wrote in a letter dated February 28, 2005.

    "My husband would [have] wanted something like this as much as I do because he so much loved his family."

    Her sentiments became part a bill to abolish the death penalty that was introduced in 2007 and died on the Senate floor in New Mexico. Its supporters are hopeful it has a better chance this year -- so far, it has passed the House of Representatives and is awaiting action in the Senate.

    "I think it helps the debate from being less emotional than it has the potential to be," Democratic Rep. Gail Chasey said. "People will say we can't put a price on justice, but in fact, we do put a price on justice when we are not able to give our district attorneys, our police departments, our attorney general the funding they need."

    In Colorado, House Bill 1274 proposes to put the anticipated savings from abolishing the death penalty toward the Colorado Bureau of Investigation's cold case homicide team.

    The state has about 1,430 unsolved homicides dating back to 1970, according to Howard Morton, founder of the Families of Homicide Victims and Missing Persons, an advocacy group pushing for the bill.

    For Morton, whose son, Guy, disappeared in 1975, the issue goes beyond the misuse of tax dollars. Guy was considered a missing person for 12 years until forensic examination revealed that his remains had been misidentified. His killer was never found.

    "As bad as it is to think that our son's killer is still on the streets or in our neighborhoods, there's nothing worse than feeling like he's been forgotten, just another file in a basement," he said. "Once you've had a loved one murdered, there can be no closure, but there can be resolution, the feeling like, oh well, at least justice was done."

    Kansas, New Mexico and Colorado, among the states where legislators are seeking to get rid of the death penalty, have carried out few or no executions since the U.S. Supreme Court reinstated capital punishment in 1976. On the other hand, Texas, Georgia and Virginia, which consistently lead the nation in executions each year, show no signs of changing course.

    Earlier this month, Virginia's House voted to expand capital punishment to include those who assist in a murder, and those who kill an auxiliary police officer or on-duty fire marshal.

    A bill to abolish the death penalty is also before the Texas legislature, but Harris County District Attorney Pat Lykos intends to proceed with 194 pending death penalty cases she has on the books.

    "We will spare no expense. We will go after them. Justice has no price tag," Lykos said. "We want to be as cost-effective as possible without compromising the administration of justice and public safety."


    Nonetheless, budget concerns in those states still hamper some efforts to seek the death penalty.

    In Georgia, where Gov. Sonny Perdue has ordered all government agencies to trim their budgets by 6 percent, Jamie Ryan Weis, on trial for murder, has been sitting in a jail without a lawyer for more than a year.

    The Georgia Public Defender Standards Council appointed two private attorneys in 2006 to represent Weis, who is charged with the murder of Catherine King. They were pulled from the case a year later because of a lack of funds, court documents indicate, and the Georgia Public Defender Standards Council has yet to replace them.


    "The state basically says we want to have the death penalty and we don't want to pay for it. It's like the state says it's going to the grocery store to buy the most expensive food and it's not going to pay for it," said attorney Don Samuel, one of three attorneys attempting to obtain a lawyer for Weis.

    Griffin Judicial Circuit District Attorney Scott Ballard said he plans to seek the death penalty against Weis, no matter how long it takes or how much it costs.

    "I think that if you start deciding it's too expensive to pursue the death penalty, then you're encouraging the defense to make it too expensive, and our duty to the public is too great to succumb to that," Ballard said.

    Back in Kansas, Brian Sanderholm says the state has a duty to victims, too. He opposes efforts to abolish the death penalty because he says families should be able to weigh in on an appropriate punishment, and juries should render the final outcome.

    In fact, if Thurber had admitted sooner to having killed his daughter, the father says he would have accepted a life sentence for him.
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    But by the time Thurber decided to admit his role and seek a plea deal with prosecutors, his family had already been through too much, Sanderholm says.

    "It was too late," Sanderholm said. "We'd struggled so much, but after struggling for two years, we decided we're just going to go on with it."
     
  2. pirc1

    pirc1 Member

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    Or just kill them quickly. :)
     
  3. zantabak1111

    zantabak1111 Member

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    Really??? I'm pretty sure not housing a murderer and feeding him for a decade will increase savings. How about we line em up and save on bullets? I think it's a joke how many appeals one can get in thsi country, o wait but how would lawyers make any money if this great system of justice didn't exist. Madoff is a park avenue penthouse and Stanford hasn't even been arrested. Even as a die hard republican, it's sad how much money buys in this country.
     
  4. OddsOn

    OddsOn Member

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    Just annother febal attempt by the left taking advantage of the current climate to abolish the death penalty.

    My 45 only costs me $0.32 per shell...


    In other news, cutting the US government programs like medicare, welfare and other entitlement programs would save hundreds of billions.....developing
     
  5. stanleykurtz

    stanleykurtz Member

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    I am very much against allowing the government to execute American citizens.

    I never really understood why so many Conservatives want to give the government this ultimate power. The government screws so many things up, and we know countless innocent men and women have been executed wrongly.

    If individual rights really means something, then we will one day do away with capital punishment, in my opinion.
     
  6. zantabak1111

    zantabak1111 Member

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    That is such a dumb statement. You reap what you sow in this country, if you're a thug you're a thug. Did Shane Battier ever get accused of stabbing a parking lot attendant in the throat, wait that was Rafer Alston, a piece of trash streetballer from NY not the guy who attended and got a degree from Duke. I don't recall the last time a West University resident committed a murder, do you? Seems to me like all the trash from the southwest side of town along with all those urbanites up on the northside are the one's committing the violent crimes. Call me racist, call me whatever I speak facts. ever look up the percentage of violent crimes offenders in the United States. Look it up real quick and come talk. It truly is funny how murderers aren't bred in West U, River Oaks, and Tanglewood. You know what it's called? It's called being raised by good people who are there for you. Even if your parents are divorced they're there to take care of you and nurture you, but when some lowlife on welfare pumps out babies by the loads and just leaves them on the street to grow up we end up with the garbage in society. End Rant
     
  7. zantabak1111

    zantabak1111 Member

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    Let me save you some trouble....straight from the BUREAU OF JUSTICE

    Family background

    * Thirty-one percent of jail inmates had grown up with a parent or guardian who abused alcohol or drugs
    * About 12 percent had lived in a foster home or institution.
    * Forty-six percent had a family member who had been incarcerated.

    Lifetime chances of a person going to prison are higher for

    -- men (11.3%) than for women (1.8%)
    -- blacks (18.6%) and Hispanics (10%) than for whites (3.4%)

    Based on current rates of first incarceration, an estimated 32% of black males will enter State or Federal prison during their lifetime, compared to 17% of Hispanic males and 5.9% of white males.

    The numbers speak for themselves...don't call me a racist

    http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/crimoff.htm
     
  8. B-Bob

    B-Bob "94-year-old self-described dreamer"
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    It's like you're not trying to listen. stanley said innocent people get put to death... and you're reply is "yeah but just look at who they are!" Awesome. I don't see how Stanley's point will ever recover, except that the facts are we execute innocent people.

    Did you go to the Basso New School of Logic in Manhattan, per chance?
     
  9. zantabak1111

    zantabak1111 Member

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    And I'm saying the odds are if they are innocent of murder, more than likely they're probably citizens who've broken the law many times and are probably a waste of society's tax dollars. They don't exactly throw people like Shane Battier into jail on these charges, if they do get anyone they get someone with many prior convictions and either way society as a whole is probably better with them gone. Liberals love to keep our streets littered with trash. What about those 3 asian familes in Ohio right now dealing with the death of their 3 kids....did you happen to see all the prior convictions the driver who killed them had? His driving record was a nightmare and yet he kept going free. Law abiding citizens must stop paying for the scum of society to be free. Freedom is a right you earn, not a privilege of being born, you must show your worthy of being kept among people.
     
  10. Major

    Major Member

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    Yup. Kansas is such a leftist state. And that Kansas GOP member must be a member of the left!

    Ignorance sucks.
     
  11. Nolen

    Nolen Member

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    Your hate-fueled ignorance is stunning. This post is so utterly chock-filled with ignorant bull***** it would take forever to respond point by point.

    Do you think people that get degrees from Duke are morally superior to others? You are a fool.
     
  12. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    Yeah, due process has always been a b**** for those who really support the Constitution.
     
  13. Major

    Major Member

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    I'd like to repeat: ignorance sucks.

    It's good to know that you don't believe in the rule of law, though, and that you believe that a person being "scum" should be a valid reason to give someone the death penalty, regardless due process, guilt, and all that fun.
     
  14. weslinder

    weslinder Member

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    If Judge Roy Bean could abandon the death penalty because his hanging tree wasn't strong enough, I suppose a budget crisis is an even better reason.
     
  15. Vinsanity

    Vinsanity Contributing Member

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    oh my god
     
  16. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    [whisper]piss him off real bad and maybe he'll respond in a manner that gets him banned[/whisper]
     
  17. zantabak1111

    zantabak1111 Member

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    I sad nothing worthy of me getting banned. I posted facts from the Bureau of Justice website with a link. I'm not the one who said 1 in 3 african americans will spend time in jail, the bureau of justice did. You don't like, call them. I merely stated facts. Also if you think Shane Battier and Rafer Alston are cut form the same mold you're nuts. Shane is as classy as they come, Rafer gets in the middle of a fight with the suns, is "falsely accused of stabbing someone in the neck", and got a DUI.......truly if you think my example was dumb then something is wrong with you. I said the majority of college grads from a good institution like Duke will lead promising lives, sure some will slip up, but the majority. I know none of my buddies from Tufts have ever been accused of any stabbings or murders.
     
  18. Rocket River

    Rocket River Member

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    You mean like the Corporate welfare that is all the rage now?
    BAILOUT?

    Rocket River
     
  19. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Member

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    Even if the penalty were eliminated, people like Zan would scream bloody murder at crime rates rising right when it happens.

    Wouldn't matter if crime usually rises during downtimes...
     
  20. Artesticle

    Artesticle Member

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    Absolutely. All of it.
     

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