I don't want to clog this thread with the 10% thread argument. This is about basic ideas. Our rate for graduation in the USA from 4 year university is crazy. The average grad time from UH is over 6 years!! Problem: This creates to many kids who frankly probably had no business in a 4 year school. They have now flunked out, have limited options for vocational or 2 year schools, and have a nice fat student loan to deal with. China and India have much different systems. Because of limited resources admission is much harder but graduation is basically a given. I propose a state somewhere in between, but not getting their by limiting choices (push) but by increasing choices (pull). Increase vocational training (starting from high school) increase institutions for such training, Most important, change the messege that EVERYONE should go to 4 year school to get education. Education is important but making a living and being realistic is also important.
I agree about college not being for everyone. It shouldn't be a vocational school, or where people go to get a better job. The one purpose for college should be to get an education. Learning should be the number one goal not preparation for a job. That can and will happen at college but it shouldn't be the emphasis. But we need to also address problems in k-12 education. Because of any number of reasons we have minority students who early on are qualified for gifted programs but aren't put there, as well as having an inflated number of minority students who are designated for special ed when they don't belong in those programs. Sadly studies have shown that happens today far to often, and it denies people the best education they can get. Also tests that are geared toward one culture and economic class but are standardized tests given to all students need to be revised. For instance questions about lawn mowers, lawns and riding bicycles around neighborhoods automatically are dealing with subject matter that many inner city school children don't have a clue about and are unfamiliar with those activities. The third graders I work with have those problems all the time. We need to fix some issues early on that deny children the best possible education.
Totally disagree. While that would be great in an ideal world, a 4 year university is now such a great (meaning large) investment that it is not feasible to not have getting a return on that investment as the #1 priority. The more kids schools have in gifted or special education the more money they get. They will put them in if they meet the state requirements. I guess this may be case by case basis but math is universal. You don;t have to know what a bike is to know that y profit is obtained buy n number sold times x price. It seems basic english is all that is required to know these items in 3rd grade. How many third graders mo their own lawn? You can fix all the K-12 issues you want but you will still be faced with the fact that a certain % of the population is not fit to succeed in a 4 yr school. K-12 is also not the issue of this thread.
Hmm, I thought that "Education in the USA" would encompass more than just college. I also cannot understand how you do not see the correlation to problems in college stemming from problems in K-12. How do these kids get to the point that they cannot succeed in college? While I agree that we need reforms with how college works, I think that we need MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH more work with primary education.
Correct, I should have said higher education. I believe that our K-12 system is fine. Any improvements in the k-12 systm will just adjust the % ready for university and possibly give parity to the regions. Which is great but it will not address the key issue that the large # of people going to 4 year schools is to large. Its my statement that in all populations you have varying degrees of aptitude. They get to that point by: 1. Possibly not being good enough. 2. Being in a culture at the state universities of goofing off, and partying, instead of competition and work. If you eliminate the people that are just happy to be there it helps the culture of the school. I disagree that the K-12 needs quicker attention because the COST of higher education is greater thus more is lost even if the problems are less.
I think a lot of these problems come from teachers and professors. These kids get these inflated grades from teachers who just don't care anymore. I have seen it way too often. Kids come into college with a great high school GPA, yes even 4.0, but their ACT/SAT scores or other admissions requirements reveal that they need remedial courses to be college level in some educational areas. So these kids come into college with a false knowledge of success at the lower level thinking that they are indeed ready for college courses. Things don't improve when you reach college because you have professors that are the same as the teachers in school. You have professors who will give an exam only to turn around and give a 30 point curve on that exam. That means a student that scored a 50 or 60 on that exam now shows they scored an 80 or 90. I remember a class I took in college we all showed up early for the final and our professor gave everybody a 100 just for showing up and then dismissed us. This creates a problem because many college courses are prerequisites for other courses. So when a student receives this inflated grade then proceeds to the next course and the professor ends up not being as lenient or the student just plain does not understand the material what happens? They end up with a D or F and must retake the course or drop it or even worse switch their major which results in an extended period in college. I agree that the educational system is messed up in the U.S. but I believe all areas of it are and not just one such as college.
k-12 just doesn't teach you how to study in college. if you're a smart kid but not really intelligent, you can get good grades to get into college but you might not learn how to study effectively. and if you're not super smart it catches up to you. i had a professor try to explain this to me at ut but i didn't listen and it caught up to me. eventually i learned how to study correctly, but I just thought I could breze through college and I had a rude awakening.
education system is fine. it's not about who gets in where. it's about creativity. everyone can learn what's in the books if you hammer them hard enough. but the goal of education is to create something new. the system here is good in that kids have freedom in creativity. most are ****ty at it, but there are a few that comes up with new and cool things. that's all it's about. system in east asia for example, teaches kids what's in the books, but not much creativity. of course there are creative kids, but majority are just good at books. the best would be the balance of the two. i think it's fine the way it is.
Much of this predicament is based on the ease of credit and money for student loans which has perpetuated the cost of university education in this country. As lenders stop giving 'stupid' money away, they will determine the payback ability of the students which will affect the ability for people to go to college. As the credit crisis has affected housing, the constraints in debt will ultimately have a deflationary and reduction in demand affect on not only housing, but education, automobiles and other luxury items. As an adjunct university professor, I see many students that I don't feel belong in college. I'm torn between slowing down the class for the slower people or focusing on the top of the class that thirsts for more. Its truly difficult to fail someone, and I only do it if they don't do the additional outlined work I give them to do if their scores aren't passing.
I'm in my early 20's so it was not long ago for me. My school had very limited funds but oportunities were there.
I don't understand your point. If you breezed through K-12 you obviously did it because you knew getting into Ut was going to be easy. What if that was not the case. Would you not have studied harder thus learned how to learn much better before you got there?
Great. I'm 30 and I have a 10 year old and a 7 year old in public school. You have never participated in No Child Left Smart and participation in a school versus watching your kids (attempting to learn) learning in school is completely different. We are in a good school district and they allegedly go to a good school. If this is the best we have, then we are ****ed. Our system right now is horrible.
are you kidding? kids who take out thousands of dollars to go to school probably have a desire to be there.
I think it has more to do with the fact that they do not know any different. Many, many countries do not make people pay for college. Let's try not to get me on my conspiracy theory about our govenrment, debt, and college.
Well it does not take much effort to get a loan or get admitted and the peer pressure and parental pressure and culture pressure should probably stop. I just don't see a problem with an increase of 2 year technical or vocational education.
Government assistance in paying for college does nothing to make it more affordable. http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=3344 Making College More Expensive: The Unintended Consequences of Federal Tuition Aid by Gary Wolfram (Professor at Hillsdale College) Executive Summary: Full Text
