I am in general for legalization of mar1juana but am interested in seeing how it is working in other places. It sounds like at least in the example below it isn't working that well and would be interested in seeing what other posters have to say particularly the Dutch posters if there is anything that is applicable to if mar1juana is legalized here in the US. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38750521/ns/world_news-the_new_york_times A Dutch city seeks to end drug tourism Maastricht wants to make its legalized use of recreational drugs a Dutch-only policy MAASTRICHT, the Netherlands — On a recent summer night, Marc Josemans’s Easy Going Coffee Shop was packed. The lines to buy mar1juana and hashish stretched to the reception area where customers waited behind glass barriers. Most were young. Few were Dutch. Thousands of “drug tourists” sweep into this small, picturesque city in the southeastern part of the Netherlands every day — as many as two million a year, city officials say. Their sole purpose is to visit the city’s 13 “coffee shops,” where they can buy varieties of mar1juana with names like Big Bud, Amnesia and Gold Palm without fear of prosecution. It is an attraction Maastricht and other Dutch border cities would now gladly do without. Struggling to reduce traffic jams and a high crime rate, the city is pushing to make its legalized use of recreational drugs a Dutch-only policy, banning sales to foreigners who cross the border to indulge. But whether the European Union’s free trade laws will allow that is another matter. The case, now wending its way through the courts, is being closely watched by legal scholars as a test of whether the European Court of Justice will carve out an exception to trade rules — allowing one country’s security concerns to override the European Union’s guarantee of a unified and unfettered market for goods and services. Rising crime rate City officials say they have watched with horror as a drug tolerance policy intended to keep Dutch youth safe — and established long before Europe’s borders became so porous — has morphed into something else entirely. Municipalities like Maastricht, in easy driving distance from Belgium, France and Germany, have become regional drug supply hubs. Maastricht now has a crime rate three times that of similar-size Dutch cities farther from the border. “They come with their cars and they make a lot of noise and so on,” said Gerd Leers, who was mayor of Maastricht for eight years. “But the worst part is that this group, this enormous group, is such an attractive target for criminals who want to sell their own stuff, hard stuff, and they are here too now.” In recent years, crime in Maastricht, a city of cobblestone lanes and medieval structures, has included a shootout on the highway, involving a Bulgarian assassin hired to kill a rival drug producer. Mr. Leers used to call the possibility of banning sales to foreigners a long shot. But last month, Maastricht won an early round. The advocate general for the European Court of Justice, Yves Bot, issued a finding that “narcotics, including cannabis, are not goods like others and their sale does not benefit from the freedoms of movement guaranteed by European law.” Mr. Leers called the ruling “very encouraging.” Coffee shop owners saw it differently. “There is no way this will hold up,” said John Deckers, a spokesman for the Maastricht coffee shop owners’ association. “It is discrimination against other European Union citizens.” If Maastricht gets its way, many other Dutch municipalities will doubtless follow. Last year, two small Dutch towns, Rosendal and Bergen op Zoom, decided to close all their coffee shops after surveys showed that most of their customers were foreigners. 'Our policy has been abused, misused, totally perverted' The situation has not made for good neighborly feelings. Many residents of border towns criticize Belgium, France and Germany for tolerating recreational drug use but banning the sale of drugs. “They don’t punish small buyers,” said Cyrille Fijnaut, a professor at the University of Tilburg law school. “But they also don’t have their own coffee shops, so that leaves us as the suppliers. Our policy has been abused, misused, totally perverted.” As business has boomed, many of the Dutch coffee shops — dingy, hippie establishments in the ’80s and ’90s with a few plastic tubs of mar1juana on the shelves — have become slick shops serving freshly squeezed orange juice and coffee in fine china. The Easy Going Coffee Shop has a computer console at the door where identification documents proving that customers are 18 or older are scanned and recorded. Tiny pictures on driver’s licenses are blown up to life-size on a screen, so guards can get a good look at them. Behind the teller windows, workers still cut the hashish with a big kitchen knife, but all sales are recorded on computerized cash registers. Mr. Bot’s ruling last month is only an early step in determining whether Maastricht can enforce a Dutch-only policy. A final ruling by the full court is expected by the end of the year. But Mr. Bot’s finding, a veritable tirade on the evils of drugs, surprised many legal scholars, who expected the European Union’s open market rules to trump any public order arguments, as they have in other cases. Sweden, for instance, which has a long history of struggling with alcohol abuse, was obliged to take down most of its anti-alcohol laws restricting store hours and sales, as they were seen as impinging on free trade. Polls show that a majority of the Dutch still believe that the coffee shops should exist. But the Netherlands once had 1,500 of them; now, there are about 700. And every year, the numbers decline, according to Nicole Maalste, a professor at the University of Tilburg who has written a book on the subject. “Slowly, slowly they are being closed down by inventing new rules, and new rules,” Ms. Maalste said. 'Back door' problem Much of the criminality associated with the coffee shops, experts say, revolves around what people here call the “back door” problem. The government regulates what goes on in coffee shops. But it has never legalized or regulated how the stores get the drugs they sell — an issue that states in the United States that have legalized medical mar1juana are just beginning to grapple with. In recent years, the tremendous volume of sales created by foreigners has prompted an industry of cultivating cannabis and other drugs within the Netherlands — some estimate that it is now a $2 billion a year business — much of it tangled in organized crime and money laundering operations, experts say. Advocates for legalized sales and coffee shop owners argue that trying to restrict foreigners will only encourage them to buy illegally in the streets. They also say that coffee shops have other selling points: they pay 450 million euros a year in taxes and provide thousands of jobs. Mr. Deckers, the shop association spokesman, said coffee shop owners were so skeptical that the European Union would allow restrictions on sales based on nationality that they encouraged the city to get a ruling on the subject. They doubt Mr. Bot’s arguments will stand. “We know he is wrong,” Mr. Deckers said.
The problem in many of the Dutch border cities is drug tourism. I would see this as a problem that could occur between the time the federal government axes the CSA and when the states get around to consistent regulation (much like the problems with "dry" cities and counties after prohibition). I completely understand a town not wanting to be overrun by tourists whose only aim is to buy drugs, but don't mistake this as the Dutch wanting to repeal their tolerant treatment of mar1juana. There are certainly some politicians who want to do just that, but public opinion is against such repeal. It is telling that in Holland, they see rates of use about half what their neighbors see even though they tolerate mar1juana sales. http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/netherlands/100202/mar1juana-cannabis-amsterdam-coffee-shop
They want the money, just not the crime and other bad things that come with it. Interesting. So, if they make it Dutch only, you will have Dutch folks making a living buying it for the tourists. DD
I haven't visited Maastricht that often, so I cannot really comment on the situation. IMHO if there is a problem it is not that soft drugs are legal here, it is that it isn't legal in the other European countries. That causes so many tourist to come to Maastricht. That being said if this law is passed and if what they say is true, fewer people will come to Maastricht they will regret it. fewer tourists mean less money, and it is not Like Maastricht is such a beautiful place. But like I said I do not know how big the problems are. But I had to laugh when I read the following quote in the article That is just pathetic, and not a reason to complain. Tell that to people who live in Roosendaal and Bergen op Zoom, they have higher crime rates than Maastricht. I'm not sure about the whole crime rate thing. Maastricht is not even in the top 10 most dangerous cities in the Netherlands (and there are cities in that list that are bigger and smaller and similar sized to Maastricht). It depends on which part of the Netherlands, in the North and East there is a relatively low crimerate, but in the West and the south there is more crime. they cherry pick numbers here. I believe our system is not progressive enough, it is not legal to grow soft drugs, so there is still a illegal trade in drugs, just not that much to the consumer. Most people I know (both from the left and the right of the political spectrum) want soft drugs legal. There are very little problems as a result of the legalization of soft drugs. The only problems that you hear from are tourist, who use to much drugs, when they are here. I have stated this in many threads. I do not do drugs and I also do not Drink alcohol, however many of my friends have used soft drugs, and became responsible adults with good jobs. There is hardly any problems with drugs addicts, there are more problems with alcoholics.
half of amsterdams population is non-dutch. wonder how that will work for them. i would say most of the people i met were tourists (lots of brits go there for weekend trips). also alot of expats living there (and working in the shops). a few actual dutch - maybe they buy and take it home rather than hang out. the americans stick out like a sore thumb as they will smoke out of a bong or pipe - euros all do spliffs - weed+tobacco. jo mama rolled straight joints and smoked them all by himself, which greatly impressed the euros. amsterdam probably has more coffee shops than necessary - they are everywhere. most of them do serve food or fresh juice or something else along those lines - the best breakfast place i went to was a coffee shop called barneys, which was also the cannabis cup winner that year for their strain called 'willie nelson'.
I think you're overestimating the ethnic diversity of Amsterdam. It may seem like that high a percentage of non-Dutch residents in the central city, but I seriously doubt that the figure you've thinking of is more than 25% for the city as a whole.
This. If "soft drugs" were legal everywhere, the concept of "drug tourism" would not exist. While it's ridiculous to assume every country will make them legal, if just a few more did it would ease the pressure from the Netherlands at least.
ive know ive seen figures over the years saying amsterdam is 50% non-dutch. a quick look on wikipedia brings up this though... "The non-Western immigrants settled mostly in the social housing projects in Amsterdam-West and the Bijlmer. Today, people of non-Western origin make up approximately one-third of the population of Amsterdam, and more than 50% of children.[65][66][67]" but this is specifically, non-western - if you count "western" immigrants it could very easily be 50%. either way, along w/ nyc it is definitely the most 'international' city ive been to.
"Gimme a ticket for an aeroplane Ain't got time to take a fast train Lonely days are gone, I'm a-goin' home 'Cause my baby just a-wrote me a letter. Well, she wrote me a letter Said she couldn't smoke in Amsterdam no mo' Listen mister can't you see I got to get back To my favorite cafe once mo...anyway..." Seriously, I think it's time to go visit some long lost relatives. :grin:
I've never really understood the Dutch system. It's legal to sell....but not to harvest and produce. So you've got an industry that has to rely on criminal groups for their product? An industry that can be a significant part of the economy in border towns, and the suppliers to that industry are a wee bit shady. And they're surprised there are problems. Local governments should be able to address traffic and noise issues. The higher crime seems to be a systemic problem with their drug policy as I understand it. (same problem with decriminalization on this side of the pond to some degree).
Yes, sales of small amounts is legal, but the people who supply the coffee shops are technically criminals.
They can sell but not grow ... we can grow but not sell ... what a world. http://www.portfolio.com/views/blogs/heavy-doses/2010/07/21/oakland-approves-big-mar1juana-farms/
You can grow weed, but in small quantities. Only for selfuse. Coffee shops do not have a legal way of getting their supply. But the police do not actively try to catch people that supply the coffee shops (although every now and then they do make arrests). That is what is so stupid about the Dutch system. Actually the last couple of years it has been getting worse, the Christian party was in the government, and they are very conservative (Dutch standards) when it comes to stuff like Soft drugs. I hope our new government will finally legalize everything about soft drugs. ps. Amsterdam is a very diverse city, the numbers jo mama mentions could be true (especially if you count people from Suriname and Indonesia). The Dutch had colonies all over the world, Indonesia, South Africa, Suriname, New Amsterdam/York. And from Indonesia and Surname many people live in Amsterdam, furthermore there are many people from Morocco and Turkey.
i remembered where i saw the 50% non-dutch-in-amsterdam thing - it was in my europe travel guide - lets go© 2005 edition - here is what it says on page 760 about amsterdam - "countless immigrants from spain to suriname have called this city home, and today less than 45% of its population identify themselves as ethnically dutch." on a related note, i just got back from san francisco - they got the goods out there, ill tell you what!
I've been to Amsterdam twice. Both times, I was embarrassed by and for other foreigners (not just Americans) for making asses of themselves. If the police would/could crack down on people acting like idiots, most of these problems might just go away rather than having a few idiots screw it up for everyone else. If the locals are merely complaining because of the people themselves being there, and not causing foolish problems or breaking the law, all I can say to that is that it's their right to do so, and those people will take their tourist money elsewhere.
i was embarrassed for the americans and their bong-smoking ways. honestly, i spent almost a whole week just wandering around the city and it never seemed that crazy out on the streets - even in the red light district. the one time i saw people who were obviously out of their minds to the degree that it might have been a concern was some hippies at the vondelpark who were tripping their balls off. of course, i was there in december so it was like 35 during the day and 20's at night. hard to really raise hell when its that cold out, but it was great weather for just walking the city in (and less crowded and cheaper).
When I was last there, a bunch of Euros ran out of a bar and peed into the canal. Just stood there and peed. They weren't discreet about it in the least. Judging by the way they were acting, I'd say they were drunk and not high. I don't know....maybe some more cops to stop this sort of thing might help to alleviate the problem, at least with the more rowdy foreigners.
