[Warning, very long post! ] First, let me say that I don't very often offer up a new thread on Rockets trades but the more I thought about this idea the more I wanted to post it on the board to get others opinions on it. I don't like to throw out outrageous trade ideas or just say "lets get this guy" without giving some thoughtful solutions on how to get those players. Plus teams are not going to just trade decent players to US unless THEY get something in return that helps them. I think my trade idea below works out well for all involved. I am not a "capologist" but any stretch of the imagination so I am not really sure if this trade can happen via the salary cap. If it can't and you happen to like the "principals" of the trade perhaps those that are keen on the cap can help out by adding players to make this trade work? The initial idea of the trade was to add a combo guard to the Rockets backcourt which would 1) Use our team depth to get a more quality player 2) Bolster the bench adding a spark plug player 3) Give Francis/Mobley unit rest time TRADE: Here are the nuts and bolts of the 3 team trade I am proposing. Rockets trade * Kelvin Cato * Moochie Norris - Receive Jason Terry Hawks trade * Jason Terry - Receive Sam Cassell Milwaukee trades * Sam Cassell - Receives Kelvin Cato & Moochie Norris REASONING: ROCKETS: Rockets make this move because they have shown little faith in Moochie Norris as a backup guard. Even when Moochie was playing his best he provided SOME scoring punch but we haven't seen it this season and I am wondering if we ever will see it again. He needs to be moved. Francis and Mobley are playing too many minutes these days. They need a COMPITENT backup guard that can play decent minutes and allow Francis or Mobley rest time. Additionally we need someone that is somewhat consistent so if one of the two of our main guards, Francis or Mobley, are having an off night this person can step in and give us points. What the Rockets get in Jason Terry (6'2", 180lbs) (17ppg, 7ast, 43%FG, 38% 3pters, 87%FT) is a combo guard that can come off of the bench to lead the second unit and can be the "spark" for the second unit much like how Bobby Jackson and Nick Van Exel are doing for their respective teams. Terry can play the point or shooting guard, is a decent ball handler, shooter and decent pass distributor as a backup guard. It allows the Rockets to platoon Francis, Mobley and Terry in the backcourt. Also, Terry knows how to run the pick and roll! The Rockets give up Moochie which is really nothing considering he brings nothing to the team these days anyway and Cato who is a valuable asset but expendable since we have Yao Ming and more than likely Yao will continue to get more and more minutes next year. The Rockets could then let Posey walk (but don't have to since they have his bird rights) after this season and use their MLE to obtain at veteran PF (banger with some offense) someone such as PJ Brown or Elden Cambell to play the backup Center / power forward. That would give us a decent strong rebounder as well, someone that would not be an offensive liability the way Cato would be if we played him at the PF spot with Yao. HAWKS: Terry is not really a "starting level" point guard yet the Hawks have no one better to play the position. Terry CAN play some TIME at PG but not full time. He is really an undersized shooting guard and probably is better suited for a NVE/Bobby Jackson role off the bench. But on this team he has to start. The Hawks give up Terry here for a better play making PG in Sam Cassel and more importantly gives this team more "veteran leadership" that this team needs. Sam has been to and won an NBA championship and his leadership would do wonders for this young ball club. Makes sense here. The Hawks to shake up this team and this trade would add that veteran presence that this team needs. Sam's days are numbered in Milwaukee as evidenced by the rumors of the Bucks trying to ship Cassell out before the trading deadline (rumored for Spreewell or Robert Horry) so he probably would enjoy a change in scenery. BUCKS: Assuming the Bucks re-sign Gary Payton that means that Sam Cassell is expendable. You can put as many skilled swingman on this team as you want but it still does not solve one of the LARGEST problem this team has which is interior defense! The Bucks desperately need someone down low that can rebound, block shots and play good solid man on man defense. This is the appeal of Kelvin Cato. The Bucks don't need Cassell. Michael Redd goes into the starting SG spot with guys like Desmond Mason and Toni Kukoc on the bench and Moochie plays the backup PG spot behind Payton. Cassell is expendable here with all these guards/swingmen and yet they get a quality center (especially in the east) in Kelvin Cato that can augment this offensive powerhouse of a team with a strong defensive center! Cato would be a huge upgrade over the guys playing center now in Jason Caffey and Ervin Johnson. This looks to be a win-win situation for all teams and that is why I can see this type of deal getting done (pending cap rules of course). Here would be the Rockets roster breakdown: PG: Francis/Terry/Maddox SG: Mobley/Terry/Hawkins SF: Rice/Morris/Nachbar PF: Griffin/Taylor C: Yao/(PJ Brown or Elden Campbel via MLE) Using an 8 man rotation, It looks pretty nice to have a second unit of Terry, Taylor and Nachbar coming off the bench providing a nice scoring punch while some of the first stringers are taking a rest. There would be no lull in scoring here. I think many have a concern of starting Taylor because then we wouldn't have anyone off of the bench with scoring ability. But here you could start Taylor and have Griffin come off the bench. You could do this because you would then have the luxary of Terry's offense off the bench matched with Griffin's defense and lack of an offensive game (at this stage of his career). Also, don't forget that the Rockets would STILL have Glen Rice on the roster to use in possible trades for teams wanting his expiring contract. For those of you that want to move Mobley perhaps you can use Glen Rice to obtain a more traditional SG with a more consistent outside 3pt shot. As I mentioned above, I get the feeling that this trade the way it is worked out above probably would not work under the salary cap but perhaps if it does not, someone could add in some players to make the salaries match. BOTTOM LINE Does this trade solve all of our problems? Of course not. But it does use some of our quality depth to add a more quality bench player, someone that can be a legitamte NBA 6th man of the year contender, someone that can give our team an added spark of offense from the bench. I look forward in hearing everyone's thoughts on this trade idea. Chris
One thing I dont like this lineup is there is no improvement on PF spot and I still believe PF is our weakest link when Rox want to make some noise in the west. I agree we may need trade Norris because I fell our three backcourt guards are too similar in the playing style. We need some experienced guards can actually control the tempo of the game. But more important, we need quality PF to help Yao in the O and D . I drew this conclusion by watching Rox vs Spurs game. Yao have no problems facing D-Rob and even Tim Duncan. But he got no help from our PF whatsoever. So he got beat like 1 on 2. EG may be good in severial years, but I think it would be at least 2-3 years. I am simply not patient enough to wait that long. Not mention it may turn out he is not good at all. Question, can we use PJ Brown play PF?
There's no real incentive for Hawks -- they want to dump bad contracts while trading their better players to rebalance their roster. This still leaves them with all their bad contracts, and Sammy instead of a younger Terry. I'd do it for the Rocks for cap management and better backcourt, but it cannot and will not happen.
With the recent talk regarding Francis being more open to moving over to the 2, I would expect Houston to pick up a true PG. Therefore, in your above scenario, I would expect Houston to bring Sam home.
don't forget that Moochie was an insomniac last time he played with Gary Payton. I think he got into Moochie's head. plus, I'm not trading Cato for a guard. no way. Not to say it can't work, but I depend way more on the defensive side of the court, than the offensive side. To me, this is further stripping the team of defense and setting it up to be nearly identical to Dallas without the shooters/fastbreak, and relying way too much on the development of Eddie's defense...which continues to be a no show. This means we would have traded Cato and Kenny (your two best frontcourt defenders) for a shrimpy guard and a swingman. That is too much for me, and I think it is just the wrong approach to winning in the NBA, which requires interior defense to win.
Several parts of this deal dont add up for me. First off, Jason Terry will be a restricted FA this summer. Terry is going to command a large raise from the 2.2 mil he made last season. There is really no logical reason why Terry would be ok with being a backup to Francis and Mobley. Terry does have a say in this matter b/c he is a free agent. In addition, to successfully complete a sign and trade, Atlanta would have to take on a whole lot more salary than just Sam Cassell depending on how much Terry can earn as a FA. I dont see why the Hawks would rather have an old Cassell and salary fillers as opposed to a young Jason Terry. In addition, I dont think the method to address the lack of ball movement is to add another guard that adds to the problem. Jason Terry essentially is a short SG trying to play PG which the Rockets already have too many of. The team needs to add a point man that can distribute and improve the transition game. Terry much like the Rockets current guards is not a natural passer and does not have a natural feel for the game. Terry is essentially a scorer being forced to run point. Also, one point to consider, would Mobley be ok with seeing his minutes drop from 42 to 28-30. Adding a PG that commands 30 MPG will necessitate this. Its pretty obvious that Francis and Mobley together on the floor for 40 MPG simply does not work. It was pretty obvious from insider word at the deadline that Mobley is not happy with this role dropping so much in the offense with Yao's emergence so why would he be ok being relegated back to 6th man type status? The Rockets will need to move either Francis or Mobley this summer for this team to take a step forward and to 99% of this bbs its pretty obvious which one needs to go. Ofcourse the 1% that are irrational Mobley lovers will make crazy posts about how Mobley can be a better SG than Francis but realistically Mobley is the one thats got to go. Im hoping by the end of the summer, the backcourt is re-made to the point where Francis can worry about scoring and Mobley is on his way to training camp with the Clippers, Heat or some other destination.
If the Rox do go for a truer PG it means Cat is out of the house. The trade, in effect, would be Stevie for Cat with Cat leaving for ??? and bringing back ???
ivanyy2000, the improvement in the PF spot comes with "personal growth" of Eddie Griffin. Short of a deal in which we can get an Elton Brand for Eddie Griffin I seriously don't see this team making any MAJOR trades for PF help. Mo Taylor's contract is a large one in which no one will touch and Eddie still needs time to develop. The Rockets appear like they are willing to wait as Eddie grows and aren't as impatient as many of the people here on the BB are with Eddie. Also, PJ Brown can play PF, that is his natural position. xiki, the incentive for the Hawks is a "shake up" in the roster in addition to getting a better "PG" for the team and some veteran leadership for a very young team that hasn't been in the playoffs for a long time. Bay Rock, I am not convice that Sam and Francis can both be in the lineup at the same time. I think they both want the ball too much that's why Terry works out better here. HP, interior defense is important. I won't argue with you about that. I agree. But as I mentioned above in my reply to Ivanny2000, short of an Elton Brand trade do you see this team making any moves at the PF spot? I don't! I think this team will allow Eddie to grow. Also in my scenario we get a PF banger with the MLE which then gives you the interior defense that you lose with Cato. With that in mind, does that change your mind any? Look, ultimately this team will start to really succeed via player "personal growth" (Francis, Yao, Eddie etc) and then we augment those players with solid role players. My scenario does depend on Eddie's growth. I know there are skeptics here, but the Rockets seem sold on him. And that's why I propose this trade as one way to add more quality to the team using some of the quantity of depth that we have.
I think you're underestimating the value of Terry. I think he's definitely a starting level PG. He may not be a pure PG, but he's definitely better than the majority of PGs in the league. He wouldn't be benched for Mobley.
In the Hawks games I have watched this season, their announcers usually mention Terry is more productive at SG (just like the recent Calvin Murphy comment about/to Steve). In the Bucks games I have watched since the Payton trade, there appears to be a love fest going on among Payton, Cassell and George Karl. The Bucks record of late has taken a dive, but so has just about every team in the EC not named Sixers. I would not at all be surprised to see the Bucks keep both GP & Sam (thus making Redd or Desmond Mason the odd player out).
If you aren't going to weaken a strength then how do you go about addressing the other issues? That's the whole point, we HAVE a quality back up center that doesn't get as much playing time now and will get even less as Yao improves. Why not cash in on his good season to address an area that IS of concern which is putting someone else in the backcourt that can help in the second unit. We made the Kenny Thomas trade earlier in the year because we have a "strenght" at PF and wanted to use the surplass to enhance the 2/3 position. You have to give to get. Better to give from your "strength/surplus" and add to your weakness than to not. Hey, I will be the first to admit that the #1 problem on this team is NOT backcourt depth! No question. However it is an area of concern. It is an area that needs to be improved and addressed in some fashion. It might not be this trade, it might be something on a much small scale but it is an area of concern. As Yao and Griffin develop, Cato's role will reduce. He will be less of a factor. That's why I suggested the trade above. Also, if you obtain a decent PF with the MLE then how much have you really weakened your front court whereas you strengthened dramatically your backcourt and second unit? Just my take. I guess I am in the minority here. Oh well.
I agree, Terry is more of a SG than a PG. But he can play spot minutes at PG. He is your typical combo guard. If the Bucks really are in love with Cassell and Payton together (which I am skeptical about) then I would not mind talking to the Bucks about trading Cato to them for either Redd or Desmond Mason.
Thing is, Deuce, Cato's the best interior defender the Rocks have. So it's not just a matter of trading a backup C, Cato has a much larger role now. I totally agree with the "...to get something you have to give up something..." sentiment, but the Rocks are a little too green inside to deal any big men for anything short of an upgrade. I mean, the Rockets traded Thorpe for Drexler, which was unorthodox, because Dream was a one-man gang inside. This Rockets team, most teams don't have that luxury.
Key word in your statement is the word, "NOW". But will that be the same next year when Yao develops more? I don't think so. Especially if they obtain a banger PF with the MLE. Yeah, the team is a bit green. I won't deny that at all! But the trade idea I mentioned above is done with the ASSUMPTION that Griffin and Yao will progress greatly over the summer and next year. I think these are assumptions that the Rockets maintain as well. Let's put it this way. If Yao and Griffin will progress this summer that would mean that Cato will play less, and is less needed because one of the strengths of the team is the front court. And Cato this season is having his best season as a pro in limited minutes. With these parameters in place, why not strike while the iron is hot?
The question is, would Cato's 10 minutes of interior defense be more valuable to the Rockets than the 30+ minutes of offense Terry would bring to the team. If the Rockets interior defense is so terrible than we need to trade for a power forward that can provide defense. As long as Yao is on the team, he's going to be on the floor for 35-38 minutes a game. Meaning Cato will only be getting a few minutes a game.
But that's a big assumption, amigo. The Rocks made that same assumption when they traded KT and threw Griffin to the wolves far too early for his or the team's good. Obviously, KT would be a HUGE asset right now. IMHO, the future you envision, that we all envision, is about 2 years away. Unless they can get a solid interior defender back in return, someone like Ratliff, I can't see why the Rocks should part with Cato. OMG, I'm posting a response for keeping Kelvin Cato! Another sign of the Apocalypse.
I would rather trade Eddie for a good PG and Francis for a premier PF. How about Steve and TMo for Elton Brand and Piatkowski. Then Eddie for Tony Parker (this offseason) or Gilbert Arenas (after the Nugz sign him) or packaged with Cato for Lamar Odom.
No no. You have to say: Is Cato's 10-13 mpg of interior defense and Mobley/Francis getting too many minutes more value than Terry's 30 with Collier's 10-13 minutes. You have to include Collier in that equation. Come playoff time, one game of Yao getting into foul trouble (just one game) can swing your entire season. The answer to that is Terry would give you a 3 guard lineup to make up for any prolonged time missing Yao. That's why I said that it could work. It just comes down to your belief about defense vs offense come playoff time. you do know that if we ever made such a trade, it would feature a 3 guard lineup a lot.
Terry is trying to get the MAX this offseason, and will get around 8M per year on his extension. Add to that the fact that he's 6'2 (hard to believe), and you have a disaster in the backcourt. We need to bring in a Guard who compliments Francis, and who doesn't need to shoot more than 10 or 11 time a game. We must think of this team this way: There is Francis and there is Ming. These 2 are the cornerstones. Add one more star or semi-star (Brand) and then surround them with the most cost-efficient, complimentary role players. I'm looking at Derek Anderson's stats, and they are really good. He's averaging a VERY good number of assists, and is generally a team player. Portland are paying Bonzi tons of money, so they probably want to start him. With Qyntel Woods and Zach Randolph developing very nicely, Anderson might not be happy with his minutes next season. Even Antonio Daniels has a very nice asst:TO ratio, as well as nice range. It would be absolutely incredible if we somehow got both Derek Anderson and Jeff McInnis off of Portland. Since Pippen is gone this offseason, they may want to further redice their cap numbers by unloading Anderson and McInnis' contracts onto us for Glen Rice? It's basically a money deal, and allows Portland some room for trades, as well as sign n trades next season. Rasheed may also want a big extension, so they would be helped there too. Any thoughts on how we could pickup Anderson and McInnis? I'm assuming, of course, that everyone but Steve, Ming and to some extent, Griffin are untouchables, with everyone else being available. Thoughts?
