1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

Drafting players with Fundamentals

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by DaDakota, Nov 20, 2023.

  1. DaDakota

    DaDakota Super Contributor
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 1999
    Messages:
    122,773
    Likes Received:
    31,325
    The Rockets are young, and developing, but they are developing players that lack fundamentals of basketball, dribbling, shooting, passing, bball IQ.

    Stone has been taking MAJOR swings for the fence in the hopes that one or more of our players break out into superstardom, but when has a player that lacked fundamentals coming into the league EVER broken out into that territory.

    It starts with Jalen Green - an explosive guard, who has spent his entire life beating people off the bounce with his athleticism.

    He never learned how to properly dribble with both hands, never learned how to set teammates up with a pass, has low bball IQ when he is asked to play off the ball and his left hand finish is very week.

    He really needs to go back to basics if he wants to explode, otherwise he will have a nice career as a 6th man coming off the bench and occasionally having big games.

    Then you have Jabari - who also has weak handles, average passing and BBall IQ, and a pretty horrendous dribble.

    He can shoot it....just not consistently.

    We keep taking the wrong players, there were others that were more NBA ready after them that are fundamentally more sound as players, Mobley, Murray for instance.

    Amen Thompson has the best hope as he has a very good handle, high BBall IQ but he lacks the most important aspect....shooting - and as such is also a maybe....as a player.

    I think we are valuing the wrong things - we need a good CORE base of fundamentals first....every single NBA superstar has that fundamental base.......and Ironically the Rox 2nd choices all have more of it than their first.

    Alpi - is as fundamentally sound on offense as you can get - needs defense but the skills are all there.
    Tari - is also funamentally better than the guy drafted above him has a much better understanding of winning basketball.
    Cam - is a fundamentally sound player - who lacks passing - more to the "I had to do it all" than to can't do it.....

    So, is Stone focusing on the right things? Are the Rockets getting the RIGHT players?

    We have to make a decision on Green this year, and Bari next as to whether to give them a big extension - right now....neither would have earned it.

    DD
     
  2. topfive

    topfive CF OG
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2002
    Messages:
    18,565
    Likes Received:
    36,208
    Tari came in about as fundamentally unsound as possible. He survived his rookie year by virtue of pure hustle, abnormally quick hands, and a decent 3-point shot. His handle was awful, his court vision suspect when it came to knowing where his teammates were, and his inability to finish at the rim was mindboggling. Still, that kind of energy player is always valuable, especially to a team as horrendous as we were last year.

    Don't get me wrong, I love the guy. But let's not pretend he arrived as some supremely skilled kid. Whatever training he did this summer seems to have paid off well, though, so his future is even brighter now.
     
  3. DaDakota

    DaDakota Super Contributor
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 1999
    Messages:
    122,773
    Likes Received:
    31,325
    That is fair, so add him to the "We need to consider fundamentals" list then.....

    We are drafting children who grew up playing no defense, no team ball and expecting them to transition - it ain't happening.

    I mean some of our players lack **** that is taught in Junior High......wtf.

    DD
     
    fryjol7 and topfive like this.
  4. topfive

    topfive CF OG
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2002
    Messages:
    18,565
    Likes Received:
    36,208
    Honestly, I think it's the result of players no longer spending multiple years in college. Throw in the current over-popularity of the 3-pointer (thanks a lot, Steph!) and you have far too many guys arriving on draft day with sheer potential and athletic ability, but now much else. And don't forget that many of the guys drafted because they have solid fundamentals end up being nothing more than decent starters with little upside.
     
  5. OremLK

    OremLK Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2010
    Messages:
    13,944
    Likes Received:
    6,481
    It's not that we've drafted players who lack fundamentals, it's that we've drafted very young players. You simply cannot expect a teenager to look the same as a guy who spent 3-4 years in college ball.
     
  6. DaDakota

    DaDakota Super Contributor
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 1999
    Messages:
    122,773
    Likes Received:
    31,325
    There are some guys who come into the league with fundamentals - Keegan Murray did, and he was available instead of Jabari....

    And there were players drafted AFTER Green - the point is that you keep taking LONG DISTANCE SWINGS and you strike out a lot.

    DD
     
    Corpusfan likes this.
  7. JayGoogle

    JayGoogle Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2007
    Messages:
    49,204
    Likes Received:
    38,985
    I believe this is the biggest reason why Alp looks better than Jabari and Jalen. He's been playing ball on a level higher than Div 1 NCAA ball so really his adjustment was just getting use to NBA rules and pace.

    Meanwhile Jabari and Green are really just players still learning their skillset and how to best utilize it.

    I know people hate to hear this but...they are 20 and 21, all these guys. Give them some time. Most players need time.

    None of them are Kwame Brown level busts.
     
  8. DrNuegebauer

    DrNuegebauer Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2000
    Messages:
    11,601
    Likes Received:
    7,961
    Is it reasonable to expect that every player drafted is skilled in all aspects of the game?
     
  9. JayGoogle

    JayGoogle Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2007
    Messages:
    49,204
    Likes Received:
    38,985
    This is grass is greener syndrome because go over to the Kings forum/reddit and you'll see plenty of their fans wish they didn't draft Keegan Murray and that he needs to be doing more...
     
  10. OremLK

    OremLK Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2010
    Messages:
    13,944
    Likes Received:
    6,481
    You're making my point for me, DD. Keegan Murray spent a year after high school in a postgraduate school playing ball, then spent two years in college. He came into the league with two more years of basketball experience than Jabari. Of course he was more polished and had better fundamentals.
     
  11. SamFisher

    SamFisher Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2003
    Messages:
    58,051
    Likes Received:
    35,124
    That's just the way the NBA draft works now.

    If you draft at the back like Denver and you need immediate low-cost back of the rotation help, you draft upperclassmen like Christian Braun.

    If you're at the front like the Rockets have been, you look for stars.
     
  12. Doctor Robert

    Doctor Robert Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 1999
    Messages:
    3,294
    Likes Received:
    833
    That's a bold prediction, based on... nothing. Most college-age players lack fundamentals. Some develop them and some don't. I'm not sure what makes you think ours won't. Also, I think the winning streak may have skewed your perception of where this team should be right now.
     
  13. Doctor Robert

    Doctor Robert Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 1999
    Messages:
    3,294
    Likes Received:
    833
    Exactly. If you don't go for the "best player available" then you're not going to win it all. Usually the top 5 picks are based on the highest ceiling, not the highest floor. Every terrible team is looking for the next star in the draft, not the next 6th man.
     
    roslolian likes this.
  14. xaos

    xaos Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2015
    Messages:
    6,103
    Likes Received:
    15,320
    Murray is the example on why we draft bad?

    I'd draft Jabari over Murray every single day. Easy bump material.

    Green I won't talk about because you've been trying to trade him since day 1. Pointless conversation there.
     
    cbass, fattz, Rocketeer and 5 others like this.
  15. Swapshop

    Swapshop Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2016
    Messages:
    3,685
    Likes Received:
    4,345
    Obviously you would rather your player to have a better grasp on fundamentals than not but I am more concerned about our players just being able to do their role properly. Specifically Jalen Green. Jalen's role is scoring and often times I am not so sure he doesn't just throw the ball up in the air to draw the foul with no idea where the rim even is relative to his body. He doesn't get set before his shot, every shot is off balance. Jalen is the guy I worry most about because I fear we might pay him as if he will be a superstar.

    If you flip Sengun and Jalen, Sengun drafted at 2 and Jalen drafted at 15, I would say that draft was a good one. We didn't lose the draft but what we did lose in is who got priority. All the attention we dumped into Jalen as the 2nd pick should have went to Sengun. If we treated Sengun as if he got picked number 2 we might have had an even nastier player on our hands.
     
    fryjol7 likes this.
  16. DaDakota

    DaDakota Super Contributor
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 1999
    Messages:
    122,773
    Likes Received:
    31,325
    So you guys think that Green or Bari will be a star?

    Because drafting at 2 and 3, you should get a STAR player - right?

    Not a role player, which is where they are both trending, atm, so when they are both up for extensions what do you give them or do you trade them before that point because they aren't there yet, and maybe another team has more time to wait?

    I just think the AAU game where everyone wants to dunk is killing the American player - they are just not fundamentally sound.

    DD
     
  17. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum back from the north woods
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2014
    Messages:
    68,901
    Likes Received:
    103,353
    roslolian and Nook like this.
  18. jordnnnn

    jordnnnn Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2010
    Messages:
    10,479
    Likes Received:
    11,022
    Drafting #2 or #3 should get you a star?

    League history says:

    #1 pick has made at least 1 all star game ~63% of the time.
    #2 pick has made at least 1 all star game ~40% of the time.
    #3 pick has made at least 1 all star game ~57% of the time.

    So a 2nd or 3rd pick is roughly a coin flip to make 1 all star game. And making 1 all star game doesn’t make you a star.

    Draft slot expectations are a little off.
     
    roslolian, harold bingo and JayGoogle like this.
  19. JayGoogle

    JayGoogle Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2007
    Messages:
    49,204
    Likes Received:
    38,985
    You should get an all-star player which Green and Smith could still be. Most people make their first all-star game in their mid-20s.

    I think the difference is some of you had expectations for generational players like Luka or Wemby who come into the league and dominate right away.

    After Jalen's and Jabari's first year though we should have changed our expectations to ones with more patience. They could still be all-time greats, some players it just clicks a little later but honestly I think most teams in the top 5 of a draft are just hoping they get an all-star player and as @jordnnnn there just mentioned, being an all-star doesn't make you a star.

    I don't think anyone thinks Julius Randle is a 'star' player for example.
     
  20. HamJam

    HamJam Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2011
    Messages:
    2,568
    Likes Received:
    483
    I think it is less about drafting for fundamentals and more about needing to consider feel and basketball IQ more when drafting. Tari for instance lacked some fundamentals, but he has amazing feel and instincts, especially on defense and offensive rebounding, but he also cuts well and relocates around the perimeter well.

    In general teams overrate athleticism and underrate feel and basketball IQ.

    We'll be fine though in this rebuild. Eason is going to be a starting level player, Sengun is a star level player, I have good hopes for Amen and Cam still. So, even if Jalen and Jabari are both misses, we can still build a contender. We just need to make the right call on Jalen and Jabari during this offseason.
     

Share This Page