Don't Buy a Lexus GX 460

rimrocker · Apr 13, 2010

I always thought cars named after numbers were stupid but having one that can kill you is something new.

Consumer Reports Says Lexus GX 460 Is Unsafe
http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/201...s-says-lexus-gx-460-is-unsafe/?pagemode=print

Consumers should not buy the 2010 Lexus GX 460 sport utility vehicle because of a handling problem that could lead to a rollover and possibly “serious injury or death,” according to Consumer Reports magazine.

A “don’t buy” warning is rare for the magazine, but there was no doubt it was necessary, said David Champion, the senior director of the Consumer Reports auto test division. The litmus test was whether the testers would want their families in the vehicle. The answer was no, he said, so “I wouldn’t want anybody else in it.”

The handling problem arises if the driver takes his foot off the gas pedal while driving quickly through a sharp turn. That causes the rear end of the vehicle to slide toward the outside of the turn, a condition known as “trailing-throttle” or “lift-throttle oversteer.” On dozens of other S.U.V.’s tested by the magazine, the vehicles’ electronic stability control system detected and quickly stopped the slide. But the stability control didn’t stop the GX 460 until it was almost sideways, Mr. Champion said.

“This is the first time we have seen it in an S.U.V. with E.S.C.” he said, referring to electronic stability control. Consumer Reports said it was “rare” for the magazine to “judge a vehicle’s performance not acceptable.” The last instance was with the 2001 Mitsubishi Montero Limited in 2001.

Lexus issued a statement saying that the automaker was “puzzled” by the magazine’s results since it conducts its own tests, and safety is a top priority. But Lexus said “we will take a very serious look at this and appreciate Consumer Reports’ bringing it to our attention.”

The magazine’s action is another public-relations problem for a company that probably figured public relations couldn’t get any worse.

In addition to complaints about unintended acceleration and Prius brakes, there have been questions over whether the automaker was prompt in reporting problems to federal safety investigators. Most recently the federal government said it was seeking a $16.4 million fine, accusing the automaker of not acting quickly enough. The automaker responded it is “considering a response.”

Mr. Champion said that the problem came to light at the magazine’s test track in East Haddam, Conn., while looking for “any nasty habits that might catch a driver out.” He explained, “We want a car to be benign.”

The particular test that concerned the magazine involves a turn that suddenly gets sharper. The driver enters at about 60 miles per hour and then, as if surprised, lifts off the gas. Ideally, the electronic stability control would stop a slide caused by that maneuver, allowing the vehicle to safely complete the turn.

Four of the magazine’s drivers tested the Lexus without being allowed to watch one another or to compare notes, Mr. Champion said. They met later and discovered each had a similar problem with the tail sliding too far. “It was like ‘whoa, what about that rear end!’ ” he said.

He added that technicians from Toyota later inspected the vehicle and found it met factory specifications. The magazine anonymously buys its test vehicles rather than borrowing them from automakers.

Mr. Champion said such a problem could happen in everyday driving. For example, a driver heading quickly through a turn — like a highway off-ramp — who finds the turn is sharper than expected would naturally lift off the gas, he said. The danger, he said, is that during such a slide tall vehicles like S.U.V.’s are easily tripped by curbs or soft ground, potentially causing a rollover.

The problem with the Lexus is that the electronic stability control doesn’t work well, Mr. Champion said. “The design is too slow to correct the slide before you are too far gone.”

In its statement Lexus complained that the magazine did not demonstrate the problem for its representatives. However, Mr. Champion said that when the officials visited the track it was raining hard, which would have made an apples-to-apples duplication impossible. But, he said, they showed the Lexus officials a video of their earlier tests.

Mr. Champion said electronic stability systems used on other Lexus and Toyota models have always worked quickly to stop slides, so the problem on the GX 460 was surprising. The new Toyota 4Runner, which uses the same basic architecture as the Lexus, was tested the same day and did not have the problem, he said.

“I think it is more a calibration issue of the electronic stability control,” Mr. Champion said.

Even before its “not acceptable” rating of the 2001 Mitsubishi Montero Limited, Consumer Reports had locked horns with automakers over the handling of S.U.V.’s.

In 1996, it said the 1995-96 Isuzu Trooper and the mechanically similar 1996 Acura SLX could roll over during quick turns at low speeds. Isuzu filed a lawsuit charging Consumers Union with product disparagement and defamation, but a jury in Federal District Court in Los Angeles decided that although Consumer Reports had made false statements about the Trooper, it had not defamed and disparaged Isuzu Motors.

A better-known case, involving the small Suzuki Samurai S.U.V. dragged on for eight years before Suzuki and Consumers Union agreed in 2004 to settle their legal dispute over the magazine’s assessment of the Samurai’s propensity to roll over. Neither the company nor Consumer Reports admitted fault and neither received monetary compensation, though the magazine agreed to release a “clarification” saying its description of the Samurai’s performance “was limited to the severe turns” in the magazine’s tests and “may have been misconstrued and misunderstood.” Consumers Union “never intended to state or imply that the Samurai easily rolls over in routine driving,” the statement said.

The article in dispute was published in an anniversary issue of Consumer Reports in 1996, a year after the Samurai was discontinued; the article was based on testing conducted in 1988.

The case eventually reached the United States Supreme Court, which in 2003 refused Consumers Union’s appeal of a lower court ruling requiring the organization to stand trial in the product disparagement suit brought by Suzuki.
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Depressio · Apr 13, 2010

The handling problem arises if the driver takes his foot off the gas pedal while driving quickly through a sharp turn.
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I wonder how fast and how sharp a turn it must be.

KaiSeR SoZe · Apr 13, 2010

toyota has been ****ing up

Xerobull · Apr 13, 2010

I wouldn't buy ANY car built during the Great Recession. Cost cutting.

H-townhero · Apr 13, 2010

any top heavy SUV can rollover during a sharp turn if you're speeding too fast.. wasn't this a problem with the Ford Explorer?

ChrisBosh · Apr 13, 2010

Government motors using its influence....?

Space Ghost · Apr 13, 2010

ChrisBosh said:

Government motors using its influence....?
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Pretty much.

HombreDeHierro · Apr 13, 2010

ChrisBosh said:

Government motors using its influence....?
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US automakers must have a hand in this..

ANY ****ing SUV will roll over if you turn too fast. Morons.

Depressio · Apr 13, 2010

H-townhero said:

any top heavy SUV can rollover during a sharp turn if you're speeding too fast.. wasn't this a problem with the Ford Explorer?
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Yeah, this is why I asked about the speed and sharpness of the turn. I would imagine any CAR (not just SUV) can rollover at a certain speed/angle.

juicystream · Apr 13, 2010

HombreDeHierro said:

US automakers must have a hand in this..

ANY ****ing SUV will roll over if you turn too fast. Morons.
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The infamous Ford Explorer.

BetterThanEver · Apr 13, 2010

H-townhero said:

any top heavy SUV can rollover during a sharp turn if you're speeding too fast.. wasn't this a problem with the Ford Explorer?
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Yes and they were sued like crazy and made engineering changes to fix the problem. Ford had Firestone place an extra liner on the tires to prevent them from blowing out.

What's fair for Ford is fair for Toyota.

peleincubus · Apr 13, 2010

HombreDeHierro said:

US automakers must have a hand in this..

ANY ****ing SUV will roll over if you turn too fast. Morons.
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people getting mad when they point out something dangerous in a car, hopefully protecting someone down the road.

and you get pissed about it. awesome

RedRedemption · Apr 13, 2010

HombreDeHierro said:

US automakers must have a hand in this..

ANY ****ing SUV will roll over if you turn too fast. Morons.
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I'm guessing this one rolls over at speeds that other cars wouldn't roll over? Still...

Blake · Apr 13, 2010

damn, it's like NONE of you read any of the article

here you go

"The handling problem arises if the driver takes his foot off the gas pedal while driving quickly through a sharp turn. That causes the rear end of the vehicle to slide toward the outside of the turn, a condition known as “trailing-throttle” or “lift-throttle oversteer.” On dozens of other S.U.V.’s tested by the magazine, the vehicles’ electronic stability control system detected and quickly stopped the slide. But the stability control didn’t stop the GX 460 until it was almost sideways, Mr. Champion said."

H-townhero · Apr 14, 2010

Blake said:

damn, it's like NONE of you read any of the article
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I stopped reading after:

"The particular test that concerned the magazine involves a turn that suddenly gets sharper. The driver enters at about 60 miles per hour and then, as if surprised, lifts off the gas. Ideally, the electronic stability control would stop a slide caused by that maneuver, allowing the vehicle to safely complete the turn."

It really is objective, who turns at 60 mph? My Camaro would fish tail like hell too turning at 60 MPH. If it is something like a loop off I-10, that is unacceptable, but the article is too vague (note I am not condoning Lexus/Toyota, their recent reaction to car flaws is unacceptable, but this seems like propaganda to bury them further by :grin: American Car Manufacturers.)

See here:
http://www.fordvehicles.com/suvs/explorer/

Notice the big bold white letters? It's a conspiracy I tell ya!

rrj_gamz · Apr 14, 2010

H-townhero said:

I stopped reading after:

"The particular test that concerned the magazine involves a turn that suddenly gets sharper. The driver enters at about 60 miles per hour and then, as if surprised, lifts off the gas. Ideally, the electronic stability control would stop a slide caused by that maneuver, allowing the vehicle to safely complete the turn."

It really is objective, who turns at 60 mph? My Camaro would fish tail like hell too turning at 60 MPH. If it is something like a loop off I-10, that is unacceptable, but the article is too vague (note I am not condoning Lexus/Toyota, their recent reaction to car flaws is unacceptable, but this seems like propaganda to bury them further by :grin: American Car Manufacturers.)

See here:
http://www.fordvehicles.com/suvs/explorer/

Notice the big bold white letters? It's a conspiracy I tell ya!
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Agreed...I'm not saying Toyota shouldn't look into this, but c'mon...

rimrocker · Apr 14, 2010

Bolded for the majority of people who have responded in this thread...

Toyota halts sales of Lexus SUV as Consumer Reports deems it rare 'safety risk'

By Peter Whoriskey
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, April 14, 2010; A14
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/13/AR2010041304151_pf.html

Toyota temporarily halted sales of its 2010 Lexus GX 460 on Tuesday after Consumer Reports labeled the sport-utility vehicles a "safety risk."

In a rare move, the influential magazine warned consumers against the vehicles because of the way the car slides during certain maneuvers, noting that those slides could be a prelude to rolling over. The publication has not issued such a warning since 2001.

"We believe that in real-world driving, that situation could lead to a rollover accident, which could cause serious injury or death," Consumer Reports said in a blog post.

Some auto safety advocates said the finding by the magazine highlights weaknesses in the federal government's system for reviewing new models.

NHTSA has not yet completed safety testing of the 2010 GX 460, according to the Web site SaferCar.gov.

Moreover, critics said, the type of problem turned up by the magazine would not have been found by the government because its tests are less involved.

"The government has a rollover course that they send vehicles through, but it's not a very rigorous test," said Clarence Ditlow, executive director of the Center for Auto Safety.

The National Highway Safety Traffic Administration "advises drivers of the 2010 Lexus GX 460 SUV to use care and caution," the agency said in a statement. It said it is conducting tests to verify the vehicle's adherence to federal standards and to better understand the results of the magazine test.

In a statement late Tuesday, Toyota said engineering teams were testing the GX 460 using Consumer Reports' methodology.

"We are taking the situation with the GX 460 very seriously and are determined to identify and correct the issue Consumer Reports identified," said Mark Templin, Lexus Group vice president and general manager.

The company sold 4,787 of the SUVs in the first three months of this year, 1 percent of Toyota sales, according to Edmunds.com.

The Consumer Reports finding follows months of bad publicity for Toyota stemming from the recall of millions of vehicles linked to unintended acceleration. It comes as Toyota has spent millions on consumer discounts and television advertising in an effort to revive its reputation.

In the magazine's tests, drivers take the car through a situation like one a driver might experience when exiting a highway and entering an off-ramp. At about 60 miles per hour, the driver enters a turn and then quickly lifts his or her foot off of the accelerator.

The tests were conducted by four different drivers, and in each case, the back end of the vehicle slid out.

"It was unanimous," said Jake Fisher, senior engineer at Consumer Reports and one of the test drivers. "We asked each other, 'Did you have that happen, too?' It was quite surprising."

"I've been testing cars for Consumer Reports for 11 years," he said. "I've tested hundreds of vehicles. No SUV has ever had a tail slide out so abruptly or so far."

It is not the first time the magazine has weighed in during the controversy over Toyota safety. In the wake of a recall earlier this year related to sticky gas pedals, Consumer Reports suspended its "recommended" status on eight models and has yet to reinstate it.

The nature of the problem with the GX 460 differs from unintended acceleration, but is potentially very dangerous, the magazine said. With the GX 460, the vehicle's high center of gravity heightens concerns that it could roll over in such a situation, reviewers said.

The GX460 is equipped with electronic stability control, a system that is supposed to prevent such handling difficulties through selective braking and reductions of engine power. But the system doesn't intervene quickly enough, the magazine said.

"We're in the process of testing the 2010 Lexus GX 460 SUV to ensure it complies with NHTSA's safety standard for electronic stability control, and to understand better the results obtained by Consumers Union," the federal safety agency said. "It is our belief that electronic stability control should prevent the kind of fishtail event described."
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And really conspiracy buffs... why pick on a vehicle that amounts to 1% of Toyota's sales? Wouldn't it make more sense to find something wrong with the Camry or pickups?

khanhdum · Apr 14, 2010

if you make a sharp turn in an SUV or any other car for that matter, you should not be on the road.

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