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Does China's censorship policy show the consequences of the decline of Americans protesting?

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by dmc89, Oct 28, 2014.

  1. dmc89

    dmc89 Member

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    A friend is teaching a course on Modern China. He mentioned that Chinese censorship policy through their 'Golden Firewall' primarily aims at internet posts that call for collective action (protests, mass gathering, sit-ins, etc). Posts which criticize the government and the Party are allowed. What's not tolerated is the people coming out on the streets like you see in Hong Kong. In other words, the Chinese government isn't concerned about heated and controversial discussions online so long as it remains online.

    In America, it's common knowledge that many political policies and social injustices are tolerated because of the inordinate power of special interests and lobbying since the late 1970s. Most citizens feel powerless and cynical so they don't even show up to the polls anymore. Furthermore, very few people protest anymore. Collective action was an essential tool of the Civil Rights Era and the Vietnam Anti-War Movement.

    I think China's Golden Firewall policy shows that collective action is crucial to upholding democracy. I think it's become common for Americans to voice their dissent and criticism of government (i.e. proposed Comcast Time Warner merger) online and especially in places like the D&D. Unfortunately, I think China shows that online discussions without real-world collective action like protests and strikes means the will of the people is subverted for the sake of a very, very small number of wealthy donors and their business entities.
     
  2. Kyakko

    Kyakko Contributing Member

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    Been to china several times... your average Chinese care more about what's for dinner than the fact that their internet is censored. It's pretty much how Americans talk about "Washington" as being broken but no one is talking about taking up arms and protesting. The general attitude is "it is what it is, and always has been"... sort of like here.
     
  3. KingCheetah

    KingCheetah Contributing Member

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    You don't need the Internet to organize large protests.
     
  4. Nook

    Nook Member

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    For all the lobbying and special interests, ultimately in the USA it comes down to the polls.

    Americans do not turnout to the polls because they feel powerless. Americans do not turnout to the polls because they are lazy and overall are happy with the status quo. When issues emerge and times get bad, voter turnout increases.
     
  5. Nook

    Nook Member

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    Bro there is no March of Selma without the internet.

    No way MLK would have been able to get peaceful protests without the internet.

    There is no American Revolution without Reddit.
     
  6. dmc89

    dmc89 Member

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    Exactly. I've been hearing for several years fellow citizens talk and talk and talk some more. At the end of the day, action counts a lot more than heated discussions at the dinner table or online forums. The powers that want the status quo to remain whish for us to continue talking, but not protesting.

    Bringing up the idea of protesting is foreign to today's middle class. Most of the current managers that I know were born in the 1960s so they never knew the power of collective action like the former Hippies. In fact, I brought this up a few weeks ago with friends, and most felt that protests were for working class types or minorities like the ones in Ferguson.
     
  7. dmc89

    dmc89 Member

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    You misunderstood my point. The Chinese don't care about online or verbal discussions as far as censorship. What won't be tolerated online or offline is calls for collective action like strikes or protests. In other words, talk all you want. 'They' know it won't matter until several thousands of you are out on the streets. The majority of New Deal legislation was a consequence of the 1930s culture of collective action.

    I'm saying Chinese censorship shows the power of collective action, and how Americans have forgotten it thus leading to the status quo of grumbling and criticism without any effective political change. To make real change, Americans must use collective action. Roll those dress shirt sleeves up, leave the blazer in the Mercedes, polish those Ferragamo loafers, pick up a sign, and yell like it's the Texans game.
     
  8. dmc89

    dmc89 Member

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    I disagree with that. Most people I speak to aren't lazy so much as politically apathetic. "My vote doesn't count so what's the point? It'll only encourage the bastards." Speaking to most people, they aren't happy whether it's our healthcare system, telecoms, our infrastructure, our public education system, climate change, etc.

    I also think there's a threshold limit which society will tolerate before political apathy is destroyed floods of people show up to vote. Right now, since the late 70s, the threshold limit hasn't been crossed. Furthermore, the middle class and working class has been divided so issues we all care about becomes issues only certain incomes/sectors care about (i.e. fast food workers and the minimum wage debate).
     
  9. Nook

    Nook Member

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    People always complain, even when they are fat and happy.

    What do you expect people to say to you?
    "Yeah I am a lazy, overall content sloth that doesn't have it bad enough to do anything."

    When things get bad enough, people come together and make changes.... you saw it in the Civil Rights Movement, Sufferage and other events. Further, recently you had Tea Party and Occupy Wall Street idiots protesting.

    There is ZERO proof that voting rights are suppressed or that voting does not matter because of lobbying. Ultimately they all answer to the voter.
     
  10. dmc89

    dmc89 Member

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    1) Although I wouldn't say suppressed, something short of that has been happening for a while now whether it's the 2000 Election, the current Voter ID laws, or that Election Day is not a Federal holiday where all business close to allow people to vote, etc.

    2) I know if things become bad enough that people will show up. IMO it's just a notch below that. Not too bad, but just bad enough that over decades it's had a horrible effect on our middle class.

    3) There have been several publications in the past 5 years showing the limited power of ordinary voters. This may be acceptable today, but in the long run for our democracy it's a worm eating the core out slowly.

    I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this issue. We're on two fundamentally different grounds as far the overall status of the American voter and her power to influence politics today.

     
  11. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Contributing Member

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    Collective action doesn't really have to manifest itself in protest. The Tea Party is an example of very effective collective action that never protested. Occupy Wallstreet was a collection action that employed protest and didn't accomplish anything. It seems you're building the argument on the premise that online discussion is ineffectual, which I don't think is right. I think that's a huge opportunity to build a movement.
     
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  12. Nook

    Nook Member

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    I don't entirely disagree with you and I respect your view. There is no doubt that people with money and power attempt to influence policy and how this county is ran and have prevailed in many cases.

    My point is that ultimately the power resides with the voter. If enough people strongly feel a particular way they WILL change policy in this country. There is federal elections every 2 years and a Presidential election every 4 years.

    There seems to be this passive idea that the people have lost some power... the reality is the power is there, they just choose not to exercise it.
     
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  13. calurker

    calurker Contributing Member

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  14. g1184

    g1184 Member

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    A couple of questions -

    What's the practical difference between an apathetic voter base and a powerless voter base? Isn't the end result the same?

    If a large majority of Americans are in favor of something, and it isn't enacted by our law makers, isn't that an effective loss of power?

    To tie it back to the OP, isn't a population that has lost its incentive to exercise political power (either by being outgunned by lobbies or by direct oppression by the government) effectively powerless?
     
  15. dmc89

    dmc89 Member

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    I disagree.

    http://news.sciencemag.org/asiapaci...rship-reveals-deepest-fears-chinas-government

    http://gking.harvard.edu/publications/randomized-experimental-study-censorship-china

     
  16. HR Dept

    HR Dept Contributing Member

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    In the year 2014, yeah you do. In fact, let's say you had to organize 25 people that you know for one reason or the other. How would you do that? What would you use?
     
  17. Kojirou

    Kojirou Member

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    If you want to look it from purely the perspective of results, then there is no difference. But political society is not just about results, ie. what laws are passed or not passed. Political society is about ideals and legitimacy as well: what ideals unite the people or the nation, and how does this shape the collective ethic? And a society in which there are no such ideals, where a minority is actively suppressing the majority as is the case in say, Syria, has a very dfferent outlook compared to the United States which implicitly understands the importance of the majority.


    No, because there is absolutely nothing which stops a population from regaining that incentive. It's literally just a matter of will.
     
  18. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
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    A few of us here participated in protests and protest marches during Vietnam, and even science fiction authors that were brilliant cats, guys like Clarke, Asimov, and Heinlein, couldn't dream up the internet. Somehow, we managed loads of protests against the war in numbers large and small. Amazing how organized people can be without "high technology" lending a hand, unless you consider posters and telephones high technology in the 1960's and '70's. And OP, you can't be serious about the PRC "not caring" about what people post online. I must disagree with your opinion in that regard. I think they care a lot, unfortunately, in my humble opinion.
     
  19. KingCheetah

    KingCheetah Contributing Member

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    This is absolutely not true.
     
  20. KingCheetah

    KingCheetah Contributing Member

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    Nice try NSA.
     

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