Do you think if the Astros spent more money would we have a better season?

part of the difference from last year is how much money we were still paying Bagwell.

what premier pitching was available in the offseason?

 

Of course - that's kind of a silly question. If the Rockies spent $150 million on payroll, they wouldn't suck either. But overall, if you're suggesting a $5 mill drop in our payroll doomed us, no. Keep in mind, there is a reserve earmarked for Clemens (should he deem the team worthy - he probably won't) that would put our payroll at the $98 mill mark.

The more accurate question is had we $90 million more wisely would we be doing better. That's another gigantic yes. Carlos Lee is a good pickup, but well overpaid for his one-sided game (which is still resting, apparently). We never got that missing rotation guy or the bullpen booster we needed.

Still.........the biggest reason we're crapping all over the grass right now is this team is built in such a way as to depend on big RBI years from Berkman and Lee 4 games out of 5, and they haven't shown up. We need to average 6 runs a game to have a shot at a winning season, and they aren't delivering (yet).

Evan

 

Not even the Yankees average 6 runs per game. That's a bit of a ridiculous expectation just to achieve a winning season.

 

Yeah, i have a response. Uhhhh....WHAT??

 

You'd like to pay a pitcher who's never pitched in the major leagues and has spent his entire career in a 6 or 7 man rotation about $17MM a year for 6 years?

You can do that if you have a $150MM payroll. That's a recipe for disaster if you don't. There's a reason only Boston and New York were in the running for him.

 

Matsuzaka chose which teams he wanted to negotiate with...not the other way around. we weren't on the list because he wasn't considering us.

Scott

Boras

 

Boras wanted Dice-K in Boston, Boras runs the show.

 

The way I look at it is that spending more money on better players does not guarantee a winner, while spending no money can almost guarantee a loser (ala Kansas City). However, I don't think the Astros problem is money spent. Drayton has opened his wallet and a team with the payroll of as much as the Astros should be competitive.

It's way too early to make judgements. We obviously could have done better, but we are still only 2 games out of first and our 2 only big bats have yet to wake up and that is going to change.

 

51 million does NOT count towards the payroll? i highly doubt that's chump change to Drayton.

btw, i understand what you mean. but 51 million is NOT JUST 51 million.

 

and our starting pitching has looked very good. we're going to win this division.

 

The problem with the Astros isn't about the willingness to spend, but rather the unwillingness(or the incapability) to develop from the farm. NO team can build from just trades and FA. The most prominent example being the Yankees. The Astros are basically a poor-man Yankees team. They constantly retool through trades and FA, sapping themselves of prospects along with #1 picks. But at some point, the well becomes dry.

Now, I'm not really criticizing their moves. For those moves brought us a WS appearance and many post-season berths. I'm just saying that we're at the end of our run, and that just poring money into the team no longer helps because the core isn't talented enough.

 

i agree...we are 1 game out and Berkman and Lee may as well be Bruntlett and Palmiero right now...Jennings has looked GREAT imo...and Woody pitched well this week too. Roy O is the best pitcher in the NL and our 4 and 5 are no worse than anyone else's in our division right now.

 

why are we at the end of our run? most of the players that were part of "our run" are gone. bagwell is gone...biggio is leaving....that roster has turned itself over.

here's who is from the farm who is playing this season, off the top of my head:

oswalt
berkman
biggio
burke
scott
lidge
ensberg
everett
wandy
sampson

With Pence and Patton waiting to come up...and other good young talent as well...I think the Astros have done quite well with their farm system. Much better than most teams, frankly.

 

Yeah, I really don't understand that argument at all.

 

If you look at most rankings, our prospects aren't exactly high on scout's list. Granted, they may seem like "can't miss" prospects in our eyes, but objective observers don't seem to like them that much.

And you're missing the point here. The best time to make a run, so to speak, is when you have young players playing at a high level making very little money. Remember the days when Oswalt and Berkman were making peanuts? Or when we had 3 all-star level relivers in Lidge/Dotel/Wagner making about $13 mil collectively? Back when Ensberg was producing more but making less? Or when Lima and Hampton were both 20 game winners before their big contracts?

Where are those players now? Both Berkman and Oswalt are still studs, but they're are stars getting paid like stars. Who's our all-star calibur player still no eligible for FA yet? Where's our young fire-throwing bullpen guys still waiting for arbitration money? Instead, we have money tied to players no longer playing, like Bagwell and his buyout, Pettite and his deferred money, etc. This team has to rebuild(not just retool) at some point. And this season could very well be the breaking point.

 

You're basically blaming the Astros for not having an Oswalt, Berkman, Lidge, or Ensberg coming up EVERY year????

What teams have you been watching, besides the Astros, that have had such success from their farm?

First of all, our prospects (esp. Pence and Patton) are just as good as any team which has remained in contention for the last TEN years, consistently. Second of all, the "objective" observers you cite (which is probably just ESPN) never really pumped up Oswalt, Berkman, Ensberg, Lidge, or any of the prospects you're currently salivating over.

Third of all, Wagner was getting paid $11 million a year in 2003... the year of Lidge/Dotel/Wagner.

Farm systems go through cycles ALL the time. The Astros aren't even at the worst part of that cycle right now (that would be 2003 or 04, where they had nothing ready in the farm system... needed Kent/Beltran to compete).

Sounds like you're a closet Oakland A's fan. I'm glad we're able to keep our stud prospects and sign them to big deals. Hell, Berkman and Oswalt have only played ONE year of their big deals... both are just 2 years removed from arbitration... yea, they're really aging.

 

i think your expectations of this or any farm system are too high.

 

*Sighs* When did I say that? In the baseball rookie scale contract, a player plays for peanuts for 3 years, and relative peanuts(scale of about 3-6-9 mil) for the next 3 years. So the window is pretty long if you manage to snatch an all-star directly from the farm, like we did with Lidge, Oswalt, and Berkman. Hardly needs to be "every year" like you're implying.

Okay, now I'm scratching my head here. You're kidding, right? Please tell me you're kidding. I don't have time to possibly do full research here, but off the top of my head, I can think of the Yankees in the late 90s with Pettite, Jeter, Rivera, Posada... maybe I'm missing some more. The As have almost too many to name, their big 3 in the rotation, steroid 1st baseman, Miguel Tejada, etc. Much of Detroit's vaunted pitching staff came from their farm. But I don't know the team well enough to do a more thorough analysis.

We can agree to disagree here. Oswalt was a special case, as he rose up the system at an unbelivable pace. But Wagner, Lidge, and Berkman were all very highly regarded. In addition, the Astros had a lot more DEPTH on the farm.

Except Lidge was making nothing and Dotel was making arbitration money. Which I thought was $2 mil, but certainly not much more than that.

They still don't. Look at our major league ready prospects. Pence and... Prospects are hardly sure things, which is why you need so many of them. For example, Elarton was a much more of a sure thing than any Astros prospects right now. Didn't exactly turn out well.

What's wrong with liking the A's? If we had the A's mangement and farm along with the spending power of the current Astros organization, w'e'd be a perenial powerhouse.