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Do you support any attack on Iraq?

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by michecon, Jul 30, 2002.

  1. michecon

    michecon Member

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    This is my question of the day. And to go with it, Here is a NYT article about possible economic effects:

    _______________________________________________
    Profound Effect on U.S. Economy Seen in a War on Iraq
    By PATRICK E. TYLER and RICHARD W. STEVENSON

    -------------------------------------------------
    ASHINGTON, July 29 — An American attack on Iraq could profoundly affect the American economy, because the United States would have to pay most of the cost and bear the brunt of any oil price shock or other market disruptions, government officials, diplomats and economists say.

    Eleven years ago, the Persian Gulf war, fought to roll back Iraq's invasion of Kuwait, cost the United States and its allies $60 billion and helped set off an economic recession caused in part by a spike in oil prices.


    For that war, the allies picked up almost 80 percent of the bill. Today, however, as the Bush administration works on plans to overthrow Saddam Hussein, the United States is confronting the likelihood that this time around it would have to pick up the tab largely by itself, diplomats said.

    Unless the economic outlook brightens, the government could well find itself spending heavily on the military even as the economy recovers falteringly from last year's recession.

    Senior administration officials said Mr. Bush and his top advisers had not begun to consider the cost of a war because they had yet to decide what kind of military operation might be necessary. Whatever choice is made, experts say, the costs are likely to be significant and therefore may ultimately influence the size, scale and tactics of any military operation.

    Already, the federal budget deficit is expanding, meaning that the bill for a war would lead either to more red ink or to cutbacks in domestic programs.

    If consumer and investor confidence remains fragile, military action could have substantial psychological effects on the financial markets, retail spending, business investment, travel and other key elements of the economy, officials and experts said.

    If oil supplies are disrupted, as they were during the 1991 gulf war, and prices rise sharply, the economic effects would be felt in the United States and around the world.

    All of that could present a complicated political problem for President Bush, both in the Congressional mid-term elections in November and as he manages a war and looks ahead to his re-election campaign in 2004.

    "I think a good case can be made that voters will want to understand the case for a war or any kind of extended military action better than they do now because the economic considerations are considerable," said Kim N. Wallace, a political analyst for Lehman Brothers in Washington.

    Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Japan divided the cost of the 1991 war with the United States, but today none has offered to assist with financing a new military campaign. In fact, each has signaled that it is not eager to be asked, diplomats say.

    "Just open a map," said a member of the Kuwaiti royal family in close consultation with Washington. "Afghanistan is in turmoil, the Middle East is in flames, and you want to open a third front in the region?"

    "That would truly turn into a war of civilizations," he added.

    If Mr. Bush decides on a large-scale invasion plan for Iraq involving as many as 250,000 troops, as some commanders advocate, the country would face a significant military mobilization and call-up of reserves as early as this fall to be ready for a military campaign early next year.

    James R. Schlesinger, a member of the Defense Policy Board that advises the Pentagon who held senior cabinet posts in Republican and Democratic administrations, said he believed that the president would opt for a significant ground presence in Iraq. He said he did not think that fear of economic instability by itself would cause the United States to refrain from trying to unseat the Iraqi leader.

    "My view is that given all we have said as a leading world power about the necessity of regime change in Iraq," Mr. Schlesinger said, "means that our credibility would be badly damaged if that regime change did not take place."

    The Persian Gulf war cost $61.1 billion, according to the Congressional Research Service, of which $48.4 billion was paid by other nations.

    The House Budget Committee's Democratic staff said that in 2002 dollars, the cost of the war was $79.9 billion, providing a very rough benchmark for what a conflict of similar dimensions might cost today.

    Representative John M. Spratt Jr. of South Carolina, the senior Democrat on the House Budget Committee and a member of the Armed Services Committee, said the United States would come up with whatever money was necessary. But he said planning for a war now would have to recognize the nation's deteriorating fiscal condition and the need to address other priorities.

    "While it's not beyond our means, we can't have it all," Mr. Spratt said. "Since there is no surplus in the budget from which the cost could be paid, there will be trade-offs, making initiatives like Medicare drug coverage harder to do, and there almost certainly will be deeper deficits and more debt."

    James A. Placke, a former senior diplomat specializing in the Persian Gulf and now a senior associate of Cambridge Energy Research Associates, said the market reaction to any invasion of Iraq was at best uncertain. "Given the marked lack of enthusiasm for this venture, I wouldn't think the market reaction would be very good," he said.

    "When weapons start going off in the Middle East, markets generally go down, gold prices go up, and oil prices shoot to the moon," he added, "and I expect that this is the short-run pattern that we can reasonably anticipate."

    The United States is best prepared among the Western powers to withstand fluctuations in oil markets through drawdowns from its Strategic Petroleum Reserve, which today holds about 580 million barrels of oil. But Richard N. Cooper, a Harvard economist who headed the Central Intelligence Agency's top analytical body during the 1990's, cautioned that "psychological factors come into play" even in the face of prudent preparation.

    He pointed out that after Iraqi forces invaded Kuwait in August 1990, oil prices climbed rapidly from a low of $15 a barrel and peaked at $40 in October 1990, although it was well known that the United States would release oil from the strategic reserve. Prices remained high for more than a year in what many experts saw as a tax on worldwide consumers that allowed Saudi Arabia and Kuwait to pay down the American and allied bill for the war.

    "I am firmly of the school that the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait precipitated the American recession in 1991," Professor Cooper said, adding that while he generally praised the first President Bush's handling of the war, "the one area of fault was that they dallied on their commitment to release oil supplies from the Strategic Petroleum Reserve."

    Last Nov. 13, a month after the United States began bombing Afghanistan to dislodge the Taliban and Al Qaeda, the president's advisers debated whether Iraq should be the focus of phase two of the campaign against terrorism. Mr. Bush directed Energy Secretary Spencer Abraham to add more than 100 million barrels to the Strategic Petroleum Reserve.

    Since Jan. 1, oil shipments into the reserve have reached record levels, about 150,000 barrels a day. One oil strategist in London noted that United States government acquisitions for the reserve were accounting for more than half of the growth in demand for oil this year.

    With a capacity of 700 million barrels, the reserve could be used to disperse 4.2 million barrels of oil a day to jittery markets — more than enough to make up for the 1 million barrels a day of Iraqi crude lost because of military operations.

    "What I am hearing from Washington," said Adam Sieminski, an oil markets analyst for Deutsche Bank in London, "is that serious consideration is being given to a coordinated Strategic Petroleum Reserve drawdown by the United States, Germany and Japan if military action takes place because this Bush does not want to make the mistake his father did."

    Still, the fear is that Mr. Hussein, who set afire oil fields in Kuwait a decade ago, might strike out with chemical, biological or radiological weapons at Kuwait or Saudi Arabia, the world's largest oil producer with the largest capacity to expand its oil production to stabilize oil supplies.

    "Everybody's nightmare is Saudi Arabia," said an Energy Department oil analyst. "People are deathly afraid of any military campaign spreading to Saudi Arabia." That country contains one half of the spare production capacity in the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries.
     
  2. Cohen

    Cohen Member

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    IMHO, the specialists who have access to the information need to assess the threat that saddam poses to his neighbors and to others (including us) through his support to terrorists (we don't need any States handing weapons of mass destruction to terrorists either now or in the future). I would hope that the information used to make such a serious decision can be shared with us. It is obvious that without presenting good information, many, including our allies, will not be pleased with such a unilateral action. I don't think that the Arab countries will be pleased under any circumstance (by all reports, many of them still seem to believe that 9-11 was a zionist plot).
     
  3. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Member

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    With a media blanket on journalists in the area, there would be no idea what is really going on there except for an occasional leak or two. I'm beginning to believe that this will turn into some sick ploy for Dubya to win a bid for reelection.

    There's no real justification for invading Iraq. A mulitnational coalition that would be formed could be literaly held by office supplies.

    And the spotlight for other problems like the stability of Afghanistan, peace in the Middle East, and the civil wars in South East Asia would go largely ignored than it is already. It won't solve any of the terrorists causes, and rather inflame some more.

    If there were genuine interests in toppling Saddam, then we would go at this more slowly. But seeing how Bush is grooming himself to be a two termer, time is not something we'll have.
     
  4. NJRocket

    NJRocket Member

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    blow em off the map
     
  5. HayesStreet

    HayesStreet Member

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    Well, there are many justifications for invading Iraq.

    Political

    Saddam is a despot who only remains in power by committing genocide on those within the borders of Iraq. Check out the Kurds, or even those in Saddam's own party that he has wiped out.

    Saddam is destabilizing the Israeli-Palestinian conflict with open support for efforts like the suicide bombings, and probably with a lot of covert activity as well.

    Saddam has clearly renounced the agreement by which he stayed in power after the Gulf War. If the legitimacy and functional ability of the UN to handles crisises is to be maintained, then Saddam must be removed.

    Security

    Saddam is trying to acquire, or has already acquired weapons of mass destruction. Those are a threat not only to peace in the Middle East but to the rest of the world as well.

    Economic

    Saddam continues to pose a conventional threat in the area. While an invasion might cause an oil shock, allowing Saddam to remain in power makes such a shock as inevitable as his next aggressive move in the region. The option is one possible shock now versus at least one in the future and more likely a continual cycle of them as long as he is in power. He invaded Iran, which caused a shock. He invaded Kuwait, which caused a shock. He was poised to invade Saudi Arabia, which would have triggered the largest oil shock we've ever seen.
     
  6. BrianKagy

    BrianKagy Member

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    Do I support "any" attack on Iraq?

    That's a bit open-ended, don't you think? If I agree to that, it implies that I'd support nuking them tomorrow.
     
  7. rockHEAD

    rockHEAD Member

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    it's all about oil and creating diversions, when we attack Iraq (and we will, dubya wills it) there will also be something going on stateside that dubya will need attention diverted from. an attack on iraq will create that diversion. dubya and his oil cronies/oil cabinet are sneaky bastards out to fill their pockets only.

    just my 2¢
     
  8. tbagain

    tbagain Member

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    What a horrible article from the NY Times!

    If oil supplies are disrupted, as they were during the 1991 gulf war, and prices rise sharply, the economic effects would be felt in the United States and around the world.

    This is a flat out lie. Oil prices jumped $5 a barrel and then dropped during the conflict. Look at any historical chart during the past 10 years, and you will see $5 increases and decreases to be common during any given month.

    This article deals with the concequences of the oil price spike after Iraq invaded Kuwait- not when Coalition Forces invaded Iraq. How on Earth can the authors compare a future U.S. led overthrow of Saddam to their scenario? The Gulf War brought stability to the region and oil prices. How does this crap get printed in a major newspaper?

    Invisible Fan wrote-
    With a media blanket on journalists in the area, there would be no idea what is really going on there except for an occasional leak or two. I'm beginning to believe that this will turn into some sick ploy for Dubya to win a bid for reelection.

    The only sickness I see is paranoia.;)

    There's no real justification for invading Iraq. A mulitnational coalition that would be formed could be literaly held by office supplies.

    The evidence that Saddam participated in the training and funding of Al Queda is overwhelming. Add this to his dogged pursuit of WMD, and you have to be brain dead to think we should leave him in power.

    http://www.pbs.org/wnet/wideangle/shows/saddam/index.html

    Wide Angle, a PBS program, aired a wonderful expose about this subject. Those crazed hawkish conservatives at PBS/Wide Angle concluded that Iraq should be invaded ASAP.
     
  9. tbagain

    tbagain Member

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    I think that opinion was worth every bit of 2 cents.:D ;)
     
  10. El_Conquistador

    El_Conquistador King of the D&D, The Legend, #1 Ranking

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    rockHEAD --
    Would that be similar to the Clinton administration bombing Iraq right after the Lewinsky situation rose to prominence?

    please. Your unsubstantiated claims are ridiculous.

    :rolleyes:
     
  11. Rocketman95

    Rocketman95 Hangout Boy

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    As are your's. :rolleyes:
     
  12. TheFreak

    TheFreak Member

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    I thought he bombed a pharmaceutical facility.
     
  13. El_Conquistador

    El_Conquistador King of the D&D, The Legend, #1 Ranking

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    Rocketman95--

    How are my claims unsubstantiated? What I was referring to actually happened. The Clinton administration DID bomb Iraq after the Lewinsky story broke. There is absolutely no doubt about it. Did he do it as a diversion? Who is to say, but it *was* done. Therefore my claim *was* substantiated.
     
  14. michecon

    michecon Member

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    nice catch ;) I mean from encouraged assasination to a full scale invation.
     
  15. Rocketman95

    Rocketman95 Hangout Boy

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    OK, technically you're right. But your's was a response to a claim that Bush would do it as a diversion, implying that you believed that Clinton's bombing was also a diversion.
     
  16. michecon

    michecon Member

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    Market reacts to war and instability, not regarding who invades who. $5 is a lot during early 90s, although there were turbulences during wars and OPEC formations. I don't think the author is off ground there.
     
  17. Sonny

    Sonny Member

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    Kinda like when Clinton wagged the dog??? :rolleyes:
     
  18. tbagain

    tbagain Member

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    Sorry Michecon, but facts don't support your argument. Look at the historical charts of oil prices when Iraq invaded Kuwait. The price of oil went from 10 to 40 dollars a barrel- which prompted the negative consequences described in the article. The U.S. led invasion actually stabilized the world oil market.
     
  19. ESource

    ESource Member

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    Why didn't Bush senior just finish off Saddam in the first place? It was the "perfect cover" to overthrow him. Saddam had invaded another Arab country and was threatening the othera in the area. We had the backing of most of the Arab nations to take him down BUT he was allowed to stay in power! He's been a pain in the a$$ ever since and now "the prodigal son" wants to finish what dad should have done so long ago. Except now, we don't have the Arab nations support in this nor Europe as well. So what Dubya is proposing is to take on Iraq using ONLY U.S. personnel, etc. Are we as a nation, prepared for the cost of this war? Becuz the price will be severe; let's not fool ourselves. It's seems okay to pound our chest and talk about bombing them, etc., etc. BUT when our family and friends start coming home in body bags, how will we feel then? I have friends and family in the armed forces and ARE are willing to fight for this country's security, BUT many are concerned that they'll be used as "pawns" once again in the game of politics AND the price to be paid is with their lives. Careful what you wish for cuz you may lose a brother, cousin, uncle, friend in the process.....:(
     
  20. PhiSlammaJamma

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    Based on what I've read here, I'd support it. The news has been very general about why. No specifics. However, I trust our government to do the right thing in this case.

    I would actually like to see us take a country and keep it tho'. Screw the right thing. If we paid for a war then we deserve to take the land.
     

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