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Do Angry Protests Help or Hurt the Democratic Process?

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by rocketsjudoka, Aug 6, 2009.

  1. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Member

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    This is an interesting article regardin the recent shout downs at townhall meetings and the strategy by health care reform opponents to disrupt public meetings on the subject.

    This tool has been used by the Left, and particularly by groups like Moveon.org who send out talking points for people to pepper politicians with. Recently it has become a tool of the Right. How effective of a tool is this and what does it do for the democractic process?

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32314240/ns/politics-cq_politics

    Health debate produces angry protests, retorts
    Do the conservative outbursts help or hurt the Democratic process?

    WASHINGTON - The Earth-scorching August firefight over health care has given rise to questions about the point at which stifling civil discussion damages the democratic process.

    All across the country, conservative opponents are clamoring to disrupt town-hall meetings about the proposed overhaul of the nation’s health care system, using GOP-generated talking points to shout down Democratic congressmen who attempt to explain the plan.

    The Constitution protects their right to speak freely, but Democrats say that they are limiting rather than promoting an open exchange of ideas.

    Some experts on political organization say that despite the disruption of Democratic-run events — and divided public feelings on the health care overhaul — the shout-down strategy betrays an essential weakness on the Republican side, not a strength.

    Nonetheless, the high-stakes battle has pressed allies of a president who built his narrative around his work as a community organizer into a campaign to delegitimize the organizers of the protests and their means of expression.

    “Organized mobs across the country are intimidating lawmakers, disrupting events, and silencing discussions about the change our country needs,” one Obama campaign aide wrote in an e-mail to supporters in Michigan.

    Chaotic opposition?
    Hari Sevugan, a spokesman for the Democratic National Committee, says there is a difference between expressing a point of view and browbeating others — in this case congressmen and their constituents — who seek to express theirs.

    “What’s legitimate dissent is something that provides for constructive dialogue in advancing the discussion on health insurance reform,” Sevugan said.

    House Minority Leader John A. Boehner of Ohio says the protests reflect the true sentiments of voters.

    “Democrats are in denial. Instead of acknowledging the widespread anger millions of Americans are feeling this summer toward Democrat-controlled Washington, Washington Democrats are trying to dismiss it as a fabrication,” Boehner said Wednesday. “That isn’t likely to sit well with Americans outside of Washington who are struggling and wondering when their elected leaders are going to wake up and change course.”


    Click for related content
    Vote: Do the disruptions at town halls hurt the democratic process?

    Democrats ignore voter dissatisfaction with the health care overhauls proposed on Capitol Hill at their own peril, Republicans say.

    But the nature of the protests suggest the GOP has run out of options for fighting on substance, said David S. Meyer, a sociology professor at the University of California-Irvine who wrote The Politics of Protest: Social Movements in America.

    “In historical context, it’s a tool of the weak,” Meyer said. He said it is noteworthy “that conservatives have to throw this kind of Hail Mary pass to stop health care reform” in a political system that favors that status quo.
    Democratic organizers, from time to time, have engaged in protests that could hardly be called constructive. Following the 1989 enactment of a “catastrophic care” law that raised Medicare costs for seniors, Rep. Jan Schakowsky, then a young community organizer in Chicago, watched a group of angry seniors chase then-Ways and Means Committee Chairman Dan Rostenkowski, D-Ill., out of a senior center, calling him a coward and other names as he sought refuge in his car.

    “They got around his car and were shouting rude things and banging, yes banging, on the car,” Schakowsky said.

    The law was quickly repealed.

    The episode remains the object lesson in what can happen when a lawmaker runs into angry constituents.

    Democrats out of touch?
    But Schakowsky says the dynamic was much different than today’s protests. In that case, Rostenkowski, who had met with a handful of leaders privately, was trying to duck out of the senior center on Milwaukee Avenue without meeting with the larger group of his constituents.

    Though they were angry, the seniors were trying to express their opinions to their congressman, who was actively trying to avoid them.

    “Their goal is not to have a conversation,” Schakowsky said of the contemporary town-hall protesters, who have been encouraged by conservative interest groups.

    In the current health care debate, Democrats have portrayed the interest groups and the Republican Party as the source of the discontent, citing reports of involvement by former House Majority Leader Richard K. Armey’s FreedomWorks.

    Republicans say there is a wave of Americans who oppose the Democratic-led House’s approach to health care.

    “Here’s some free advice for the Democrats: When you are attacking the voters, you are losing,” National Republican Congressional Committee spokesman Ken Spain said in an e-mail to reporters Wednesday. “Democrats in Washington have become so desperate to climb their way out of message quicksand that they have been reduced to casting the voters and even members of their own party as extremists for having the audacity to oppose a government takeover of health care.”

    Meyer says Republicans should be careful not to get too close to the protest movement lest they get hit with the backlash if demonstrators are out of control

    “This is now going to be a potential problem for Republicans who have to take responsibility for the actions of the people they get excited and engaged about this type of politics,” Meyer said.

    But he also said “irony is abundant” in the role-reversal for the community-organizer in chief. “It’s going to be interesting to see how the community organizer president is going to respond to communities organized by his political opponents.”

    CQ © 2009 All Rights Reserved | Congressional Quarterly Inc. 1255 22nd Street N.W. Washington, D.C. 20037 | 202-419-8500
     
  2. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Member

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    Basically, conservatives are taking it to a whole new level. They are using the power of free speech to deny free speech and discussion to others.

    It's a sad day for the democracy.
     
  3. El_Conquistador

    El_Conquistador King of the D&D, The Legend, #1 Ranking

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    The left was down with this approach until it started being used against them. What was once 'patriotic dissent' has now been reclassified by the libs as 'angry mobs of Astroturfers'. They can dish it out, but they can't take it. Pooooor libs... no wonder their approval ratings are plummeting.
     
  4. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Member

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    It's funny that the article doesn't allude to the fact that it's usually liberals engaged in this kind of stuff. I've never been too enamored with extra-democratic tactics. I think it has its place when governmental democratic mechanisms don't exist, are corrupt, or otherwise illegitimate. But, I don't think that's where we're at in the US today. So, I'd rather use the system.
     
  5. Dairy Ashford

    Dairy Ashford Member

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    They're the easiest way to get young, poor and less educated people involved in a particular political movement. People who can't yet advertise, lobby or litigate an issue until it bends their way.
     
  6. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Member

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    It does mention that the Left has engaged in this kind of stuff.

    [rquoter]Democratic organizers, from time to time, have engaged in protests that could hardly be called constructive. Following the 1989 enactment of a “catastrophic care” law that raised Medicare costs for seniors, Rep. Jan Schakowsky, then a young community organizer in Chicago, watched a group of angry seniors chase then-Ways and Means Committee Chairman Dan Rostenkowski, D-Ill., out of a senior center, calling him a coward and other names as he sought refuge in his car.
    [/rquoter]

    I'm not sure I would agre with this as extr-democractic tactics. Under a democracy we have the right to assemble and free speech, otherwise a democracy would be meaningless if only one party could express its message.
     
  7. rimrocker

    rimrocker Member

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    I don't see the equivalence. Peppering politicians with tough questions is a lot different than busing in people to intentionally shut down meetings. Taking umbrage at a comment by a politician is a lot different than shouting down questioners in a meeting. Asking policy related questions and holding politicians accountable for their answer is not the same as preventing the discussion from taking place. The reason of course, is because the status quo cannot be defended morally or financially and so the great necessity to stifle any discussion about reform. There are really no parallels to the attempts at intimidation by the industry backed opponents of health care reform.
     
  8. rimrocker

    rimrocker Member

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    So you're comparing a small group of irate seniors to a national, coordinated effort funded by the industrial opponents of legislation? And that anecdote assumes those seniors were Dems, which may not be the case... a number of them could have easily been Repubs, but they shared a concern over an issue that affected them as a group.
     
  9. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Member

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    Yes I would when you have several people repeatedly ask the same questions of politicians reading off of a script provided by a goup like Moveon. I've been to townhall meetings and party caucuses where supporters of Left leaning interest groups have tried to disrupt a meeting by trying to tie it up on one issue. I've also been to meeting where Left leaning people have shouted people down. I can tell you that from personal experience.

    For that matter one of the most prominent attempts by protestors to disrupt a public meeting was the 1968 Democractic Convention in that case carried out by Left leaning people. It has also become a staple of major political meetings for Leftists extremist groups to try to disrupt meetings in some cases violently if necessary. The tools of public intimidation by groups isn't limited to the Right.
     
    #9 rocketsjudoka, Aug 6, 2009
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2009
  10. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Member

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    I am only relaying what the article has reported. If you have facts that counter then article then post them.
     
  11. rimrocker

    rimrocker Member

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    (rj, that's a very bassoist response.)

    The article counters itself by trying to create a false equivalence.

    Regarding your other post, I've been to similar meetings, but it is almost always targeted at a question the speaker does not to want to answer or answers in an evasive way. The intent (in my experiences) is to make the speaker go on the record. Here, with a handful of exceptions, we pretty much know who's going to vote how. The intent of the current protests is not to confront a politician on an issue, but to drown out the discussion and not allow them to explain their stance.

    And really, you're throwing up the 1968 Dem Convention as a justification for teabaggers funded by big Pharma to shut down meetings with elected representatives and their constituents?
     
  12. rhester

    rhester Member

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    Send the Ohio National Guard out there on them? :eek: (May 4, 1970)
     
  13. MoonDogg

    MoonDogg Member

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    This summer I hear the drummin'
     
  14. pgabriel

    pgabriel Educated Negro

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    Did anyone see the Gene Green town hall in Houston, it was actually pretty civil, with a lot of opposition there.
     
  15. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Member

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    That was such a weak example, I don't think it'd even count. In this vignette, the protesters are local, seem to have organized themselves on the fly, not coordinated with any other groups, don't have any identifiable political affiliation, didn't disrupt any work being done, and are protesting a Democrat. I'm sure most readers would have forgotten it was supposed to be an example of Democrat disruption and would be sympathizing with the seniors anyway. Really, that vignette doesn't even belong in the article. I'll amend my objection that the article doesn't make any legitimate allusion to Democrats doing this kind of stuff.

    I suppose it depends on how you understand "extra-democratic." I don't mean "undemocratic." I guess I mean extra-democratic as a method of making one's own political voice louder than one's peers as a way to exercise greater political power.
     
  16. iconoclastic

    iconoclastic Member

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    A democratic process is impossible without its participants actually getting to know every other member in the process. Wiki 'Dunbar's number' to get an idea of why.
     
  17. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Member

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    While true, I don't think anyone has seen this level of coordination.

    Town Hall meetings are now a joke. They were to begin with and now it's just more so one. But the real disservice isn't to the politicians, it's to the people who wasted their time attending them trying to participate in the democratic process.

    Those people will be turned off by the groups that shouted down the politicians...and this will simply eliiminate the format - for better or worse.

    The problem is that the only way to have a true town hall is for the town to invite the politicians from both sides to discuss issues and to invite only people who belong to the town, with the understanding that shouting over politicians will be grounds for removal.
     
  18. bingsha10

    bingsha10 Member

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    Funny, just based on your descriptions of the groups doing what they do, I can't tell who you're referring to left or right. I can think of examples of both sides doing what they accuse each other of doing all the time. Both use the same playbook and to pretend otherwise is just evidence you're a blind partisan.
     
  19. aghast

    aghast Member

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    How dare one say that town halls are a joke? Clearly, with all the yelling, "brilliant woman who solves health care crisis" is not being heard!

    <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Yxe_kwc8klw&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Yxe_kwc8klw&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
     
    1 person likes this.
  20. rimrocker

    rimrocker Member

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    That's because you don't want to see the difference.
     

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